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ELLX2 Season Ticket

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maniacmartin

maniacmartin

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I have a similar but different question to ELLX2 to London Terminals by daniels.

When the South London Line is subsumed into London Overground, I want to commute via it, between Surrey Quays [SQE] and Clapham Junction [CLJ]. (Map here)

Comparing weekly season tickets (I won't necessarily buy them as weeklys though), I notice that there aren't any point to point season tickets.Tickets exist for:

Does anyone have any idea if there are any plans to introduce any more point-to-point season tickets when the East London Line Extension is opened, as the current South London Line ones are significantly cheaper than travelcards. This would save me some money. If not, I'll just use Oyster PAYG as it appears to be cheaper than weekly or monthly travelcards for weekday-only travel for wholly-Zone2 commutes.
 
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maniacmartin

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Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but I've just realised that 16-25 railcards appear to be valid in the evening peak on paper tickets but not on Oyster. Is this correct?

If so, can I use Oyster PAYG for the mornings and paper singles VIA PECKHAM RYE with Y-P for the evenings?
That would work out per week at 5*£1.50 + 5*£1.25 = £13.75
 
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maniacmartin said:
Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but I've just realised that 16-25 railcards appear to be valid in the evening peak on paper tickets but not on Oyster. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

This is correct, thereby creating somewhat an anomaly that it might be cheaper to buy paper tickets.
 
RJ

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maniacmartin said:
Does anyone have any idea if there are any plans to introduce any more point-to-point season tickets when the East London Line Extension is opened, as the current South London Line ones are significantly cheaper than travelcards. This would save me some money. If not, I'll just use Oyster PAYG as it appears to be cheaper than weekly or monthly travelcards for weekday-only travel for wholly-Zone2 commutes.
Click to expand...

You must be kidding! London Overground have actively seen to it that many Point to Point season tickets valid on their trains were removed from general sale. In fact, a load of ATOC priced Snow Hill season tickets (i.e the Peckham Rye to NLL Not Underground ones I liked buying) were erroneously removed for a single round as a result of LO's drive to get everyone using Travelcards.

I used to work near Battersea Park so the reduction to a token parliamentary SLL service, coupled with the potential impact on ticketing meant I was initially opposed to the changes to the South London Line. Now that I work a bit further west, I welcome the introduction of direct trains to Clapham Junction where I can change to get straight to work. Still don't know what impact there will be on ticketing though, quite happy to stick with a Zone 1-2 Travelcard.
 
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BOBmcbob

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Would the london bridge - london victoria season @ £16.20 P/W be useful here?
 
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bicbasher

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I can't see how it would be valid, it's bad enough when London Overground have to put posters up for passengers with London Terminals tickets to say they're not valid at Surrey Quays etc.
 
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Ironic suggestion given both of those stations are being dropped from the SLL!
 
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bicbasher

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Is the general rule then if you have a LO service that you may be able to buy season tickets if another TOC such as Southern which shares part of the ELL, WLL and Watford DC lines, otherwise if the season is between two stations with LO is the only TOC or if the season is from a shared station to a LO only served station is a no-no?
 
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No idea if there is a rule as such, best thing to do is to hammer Avantix Traveller and see what's available to buy. As far as I know there are no point to point seasons available from anywhere between Surrey Quays and Dalston Jn inclusive, although you can circumvent TfL's kind intentions to force you onto Oyster PAYG or a Travelcard by very carefully picking a station in South London, one in North London, with an appropriate route and only pay the Zone 1-2 Zonal ticket price (approx. £16.20 for a 7DS at the moment.)

However you then have to ensure that the ticket you pick is 100% valid via the ELL or it might cost you :p
 
maniacmartin

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Perhaps its the case of who is the fare setter for the flow.
If its London Overground then there will be no season ticket except travelcards.
 
RJ

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Apparently, they do seem to have quite some influence where it comes to ATOC priced seasons however...
 
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KingBruss

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A weekly ticket for £11.40 can be purchased, from New Cross Gate to Clapham Junction, and is valid via Surrey Quays (including journeys originating or terminating here).
 
maniacmartin

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I had considered the NXG - CLJ season, but entering the journey into National Rail Enquiries for a date after the ELLX2 has opened, and specifying a via point as SQE produces "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey".

NXG and CLJ are both Routeing Points, with permitted routes LONDON

A quick squint at a map makes me think this would be valid via SQE under the 3 mile rule, but I don't have the expertise to check, considering the line hasn't actually opened yet. Has NRE got confused here?


If the New Cross Gate to Clapham Junction ticket is valid, could I choose other stations in the same cluster which are also £11.40

I'm guessing I could push it out to Kensington Olympia, and to Brockley if I'm going to rely on the 3 mile rule. Is rail mileage information available anywhere for the ELLX2 yet? - It's not recognised by railmiles.org yet, so I used Google maps

Would that travel from New Cross Gate via London Bridge, Waterloo East, Waterloo and Clapham Junction also be permitted under the 3 mile rule? The existence of a more expensive LONDON NOT UND ticket implies not, however I can't understand why as railmiles currently says the shortest route Brockley to Kensington Olympia is:
Distance: 11mi 01ch - show the route on a map
Route: Brockley, New Cross Gate, Bricklayers Arms Junction, South Bermondsey Junction, South Bermondsey, Queens Road (Peckham), Peckham Rye, Crofton Road Junction, Denmark Hill, Shepherds Lane Junction, Clapham High Street, Voltaire Road Junction, Factory Junction, Longhedge Junction, Latchmere Junction, Imperial Wharf, West Brompton, Kensington Olympia
Click to expand...

If it is valid, I could then use it to get into central London at weekends if I went south to New Cross Gate, then take Southern services to London terminals (a bit slower than the Jubilee line admittedly), which would make this ticket great value for me.
 
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RJ

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maniacmartin said:
Would that travel from New Cross Gate via London Bridge, Waterloo East, Waterloo and Clapham Junction also be permitted under the 3 mile rule? The existence of a more expensive LONDON NOT UND ticket implies not, however I can't understand why as railmiles currently says the shortest route Brockley to Kensington Olympia is:

Distance: 11mi 01ch - show the route on a map
Route: Brockley, New Cross Gate, Bricklayers Arms Junction, South Bermondsey Junction, South Bermondsey, Queens Road (Peckham), Peckham Rye, Crofton Road Junction, Denmark Hill, Shepherds Lane Junction, Clapham High Street, Voltaire Road Junction, Factory Junction, Longhedge Junction, Latchmere Junction, Imperial Wharf, West Brompton, Kensington Olympia
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Which passenger service reverses at the Bricklayer's Arms? If you want official mileage figures for the purpose of calculating ticket validity, you have to use the National Rail Timetable. You can use Railmiles to give you a rough idea of which lines to look along but you can't claim a route is the shortest route if you can't follow that route entirely with regular scheduled passenger services. Seeing as you would have to go via London Bridge, the shortest route probably involves going via Waterloo and Clapham Junction.
 
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maniacmartin

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On NRE, I did a journey check for NXG to Clapham Jn for Monday 10th December at 1145. They showed the usual outer SLL times and by travelling via East Croydon on the fasts, but nothing via Surrey Quays.
 
maniacmartin

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RJ said:
Which passenger service reverses at the Bricklayer's Arms? If you want official mileage figures for the purpose of calculating ticket validity, you have to use the National Rail Timetable. You can use Railmiles to give you a rough idea of which lines to look along but you can't claim a route is the shortest route if you can't follow that route entirely with regular scheduled passenger services.
Click to expand...

Yes I'm aware that's a bogus route, but there will be a very similar route that uses the once the ELLX2 is opened (at railmiles doesn't know about). I seem to have got a bit confused when posting, sorry. What I was trying to say is there is no way that via London Bridge etc could be more than 3 miles longer

The problem with calculating the mileages from the NRT is that the new SQE to CLJ line is missing or I just can't find it. Where in the NRT does this information appear? The current South London Line is Table 178, which also details route via Crystal Palace, which isn't what I need.

East Coast/Southern WebTIS carbon emissions puts BCY - KPA:
via SQE and CLJ at 12 miles
via LBG and WAE at 13 miles
via Highbury and Willesden Jn at 17 miles
All of these show up under the £2.50 ANY PERMITTED Anytime Day S, which makes the LONDON NOT UND ticket quite redundant as I suspected.

East Coast brought up the Highbury/Willesden Jn route up without any via points specified, and I suspect WebTIS believes that this is a valid route as it allows 5 miles, not the 3 miles permitted in the routeing guide. I doubt I'll be trying this ticket via Willesden Jn though, as it would be very hard to justify if challenged
 
RJ

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I think a bit of imagination can be used, Queens Road Peckham to Surrey Quays is likely to be within half a mile of the distance between Brockley and Surrey Quays which is 2.25 miles. You can use Railmiles for Wandsworth Road to Clapham Junction.

New Cross Gate to Queens Road via SQE will be approximately 4 miles, whilst via London Bridge would be 5.25 miles.
 
maniacmartin

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Thanks KingBruss and RJ for your input. I don't think there's much more that can be said on this journey.
 
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