SkinnyDave
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One for a heated debate 
As title suggests, what if?
As title suggests, what if?
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What If Virgin won East Coast??
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SkinnyDave
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Good start
Yes, but at the time it had nothing to do with a potential Virgin franchise though.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
There would then be no doubt as to which operator was bottom of the punctuality tables.
WC and EC currently are either last or next-last every month.
WC and EC currently are either last or next-last every month.
Qwerty133
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Advanced fares between London and Scotland would be more expensive as there would be no competition?
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ash39
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It did but what relevance does that have to Virgin winning the East Coast? Do you think they'd be able to bring the Pendolinos with them and send 35 year old HST's over to the WCML?!
Qwerty133
Established Member
It did but what relevance does that have to Virgin winning the East Coast? Do you think they'd be able to bring the Pendolinos with them and send 35 year old HST's over to the WCML?!
Virgin might order pendos for the east coast
Eagle
Established Member
So might any other potential franchisee. Pendolinos aren't exclusive to Virgin, you know.
Qwerty133
Established Member
Not exclusive but would imagine they are most likely to?
Eagle
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I'd imagine any franchisee has some likelihood of ordering Pendolinos, as they're currently the only high-speed IC EMU model in Britain, and they're already cleared for it.
Geezertronic
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Didn't Virgin Trains run XC as a separate entity to West Coast so presumably they would do the same and East Coast would compete against West Coast for the end to end custom? I doubt that the DfT (for all their recent failings) would allow prices to increase if it ever happened
If(!), Pendolino's with tilting capabilities are ordered for the ECML, how much time could be saved from the London-Edinburgh journey? Assuming any track improvements required are completed.
SkinnyDave
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Alstom are claiming 50 minutes shaved off with ERTMS and 140mph
185
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I think there are two distinct relatively short sections where 140mph would be possible, but it's likely too much work to do.
If Virgin did win this, I'd love to see the look on FirstGroup's Rail Divisions boss's face. Would be like a recurring nightmare for Vernon.
If Virgin did win this, I'd love to see the look on FirstGroup's Rail Divisions boss's face. Would be like a recurring nightmare for Vernon.
SkinnyDave
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That's what Alstom were claiming, don't think it would happen in million years.
Branson is on railnews.co.uk having a pop at East Coast Management so it's fair enough to have a conversation to see what people think if they did get it.
I personally prefer East Coast to be a different travel experience to WCML and think Virgin is too flash but that's my opinion.
Branson is on railnews.co.uk having a pop at East Coast Management so it's fair enough to have a conversation to see what people think if they did get it.
I personally prefer East Coast to be a different travel experience to WCML and think Virgin is too flash but that's my opinion.
Morgsie
Member
Virgin would have a monopoly if it has both ICWC and ICEC franchises
Please don't start that agin.. Use the search functionality and you'll see that it's been discussed hundreds of times..
Also Virgin wouldn't be so stupid to assume that they could a) make more money by doing so, b) think that people would switch to flights if they did so c) that they would retain either franchise next time it came around, so would want to build up as large a customer base on both as possible in case they then lost one.
Also in terms of overall numbers of passengers along the routes the London to Scotland passengers are going to be significant but not the majority of their customers, so although it could bring them more money, it might not be that significant. As such if they pushed their end to end prices up it would just make it more likely people would use split ticketing.
I don't think current East Coast need take any lectures on railway management from Branson. Tis funny how the state owned operator knows how to return a surplus whereas Branson seems particularly expert at applying for state subsidy. It's a funny old world!
I was thinking more along the likes of using the tilt capability for increasing speeds to 110/125 on the bendier sections of the line, mainly North of Darlington.
I wouldn't really mind if Virgin won the franchise. I know there's a lot of fuss about how people don't want Pendolinos running on the ECML, but the travelling public won't care if it improves the service, so nor will I!
Nonetheless, I think East Coast are fine as they are at the moment. Comfortable trains, great First Class, not much wrong (at least from my perspective) to be honest.
Nonetheless, I think East Coast are fine as they are at the moment. Comfortable trains, great First Class, not much wrong (at least from my perspective) to be honest.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I think the only certainty is that NX won't.
All the bidders will have to take the trains specified by DfT, including IEP if they so decide.
The competition authorities will be more interested in a potential overlap with Virgin's new air service from London to Edinburgh (though it isn't critical).
If you are worried about Virgin's market share, Arriva also operate much of the route with XC (and GC), and First have overlaps with FCC, TPE and Scotrail (and HT).
But with regulated fares and services, all these "competition" issues are negligible.
Bakerbloke
Member
I agree. Leave East Coast as it is - especially if it is making a surplus. I prefer travelling in a HST rather than a Pendo anyway. Pendos still make me travel sick.
High Dyke
Established Member
And the Dft / Monopolies Commission would be spineless enough to let them run both!
Praise be for other ECML operators if they introduce Pendolinos on my local mainline. Horrible things to ride in!
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