Manchester - Blackpool & Scotland TPEx Changes

edwin_m · 10 Aug 2013

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Would you use the Manchester-facing bay platform at Bolton for such services ?

I can't visualise the platform you mention but if the capacity problem is solely between Manchester and Bolton then an extra congestion-buster service using that platform might be one option to solve it. Potentially there is a path available with the removal of the Scottish services.

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Xenophon PCDGS · 11 Aug 2013

edwin_m said:
I can't visualise the platform you mention but if the capacity problem is solely between Manchester and Bolton then an extra congestion-buster service using that platform might be one option to solve it. Potentially there is a path available with the removal of the Scottish services.

Always willing to help with queries as and when I can. At Bolton station, platform 2 is the bay platform situated at the southern end of the station, which allows for any trains from the Manchester line stations to terminate at Bolton station without the need to block any running lines through the station.

edwin_m · 11 Aug 2013

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Always willing to help with queries as and when I can. At Bolton station, platform 2 is the bay platform situated at the southern end of the station, which allows for any trains from the Manchester line stations to terminate at Bolton station without the need to block any running lines through the station.

Thanks, I was thinking of the former platform on the west side of the down island, which according to the Quail still has some track but can't be used for passenger trains. The Quail also says that platform 2 is 5-car length so would be OK for a 4-car crowdbuster using any type of stock.

Eagle · 11 Aug 2013

Sectional Appendix says p2 is 104 metres long. So that's 5 cars of 20 m stock (or Pacers) or 4 cars of 23 m stock.

snail · 11 Aug 2013

edwin_m said:
I can't visualise the platform you mention but if the capacity problem is solely between Manchester and Bolton then an extra congestion-buster service using that platform might be one option to solve it. Potentially there is a path available with the removal of the Scottish services.

It would have to be from Manchester Victoria though as the Scotland services will still run through the Piccadilly-Castlefield-Ordsall Lane section. Would Piccadilly passengers be willing to switch stations?

The problem may not be resolved until the additional platforms are built at Piccadilly.

Dunc108 · 11 Aug 2013

snail said:
It would have to be from Manchester Victoria though as the Scotland services will still run through the Piccadilly-Castlefield-Ordsall Lane section. Would Piccadilly passengers be willing to switch stations?

The problem may not be resolved until the additional platforms are built at Piccadilly.

Theres around 4tph to both Manchester Victoria/Piccadilly from Bolton at present, but, yes, interesting to see how theyre going to work round it with the Scottish service still occupying the Castlefield - Ordsall Lane section...

edwin_m · 11 Aug 2013

Enough of the regular commuters who work about the same distance from Piccadllly/Oxford Road and Victoria/Salford Central will switch to use whichever station gives them the best chance of getting a seat.

snail · 11 Aug 2013

edwin_m said:
Enough of the regular commuters who work about the same distance from Piccadllly/Oxford Road and Victoria/Salford Central will switch to use whichever station gives them the best chance of getting a seat.

Do you really think so? Victoria trains are usually ok. There are currently 10 services on each route between 4-6pm, moving 2 from Piccadilly to Victoria probably wouldn't have a great effect.

(We won't find out in December because the 1616 and 1715 services are still routed via Bolton according to Open Train Times)

Dunc108 · 11 Aug 2013

Ive travelled on the 16.20 Victoria - Blackpool North a few times and its full & standing by Salford Central ! if the 16.20s this full I wonder how full the 17.20 is, although that is supposed to be strengthened? Still, even on these a good load get off at Bolton.

snail · 11 Aug 2013

Dunc108 said:
Ive travelled on the 16.20 Victoria - Blackpool North a few times and its full & standing by Salford Central ! if the 16.20s this full I wonder how full the 17.20 is, although that is supposed to be strengthened? Still, even on these a good load get off at Bolton.

By Salford Central suggests there are a few seats free when it leaves Victoria. I sometimes get those trains at Salford Central and from what I can recall they are pretty much the same. But there are nothing like the numbers on the similar timings from Piccadilly, where a 6-car 185 is frequently full and standing.

Xenophon PCDGS · 12 Aug 2013

snail said:
By Salford Central suggests there are a few seats free when it leaves Victoria. I sometimes get those trains at Salford Central and from what I can recall they are pretty much the same. But there are nothing like the numbers on the similar timings from Piccadilly, where a 6-car 185 is frequently full and standing.

Possibly due to the fact that a larger percentage of Manchester to Bolton rail passengers work nearer to Picadilly station than those who would find Victoria nearer to their place of employment.

Dunc108 · 12 Aug 2013

snail said:
By Salford Central suggests there are a few seats free when it leaves Victoria. I sometimes get those trains at Salford Central and from what I can recall they are pretty much the same. But there are nothing like the numbers on the similar timings from Piccadilly, where a 6-car 185 is frequently full and standing.

Yes & likewise on the Piccadilly corridor exactly how many of those peak passengers join around Oxford Road rather than just exclusively at Piccadilly?

I would imagine some work around Deansgate & Oxford Road too, not just around Piccadilly.

YorkshireBear · 12 Aug 2013

Get those DRS loco hauled sets on the S&C and bring some DMUs down to run Manchester Bolton shuttles. Everyone is a winner then

Xenophon PCDGS · 12 Aug 2013

I can just imagine someone in a senior managerial role in a rail decision-making capacity reading this thread and thinking....

"Well then, that's solved the problem of the Class 142 Pacers hiding away in other TOC's....We will ship them all up to Newton Heath and tell Northern that we have solved the problem of extra capacity on the Manchester to Bolton line"...

beano900 · 14 Aug 2013

I remember in the mid 90s when I used to get the train from Manchester Piccadilly, I always used to watch the passengers cram themselves onto the Blackpool train (via Bolton). 15 years later, I find myself commuting from Oxford road station. And guess what? The Bolton train is still absolutely heaving! OK they may not be quite as bad but as someone that doesn't work in the railways, that seems a long time to ignore a problem.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

YorkshireBear · 15 Aug 2013

beano900 said:
I remember in the mid 90s when I used to get the train from Manchester Piccadilly, I always used to watch the passengers cram themselves onto the Blackpool train (via Bolton). 15 years later, I find myself commuting from Oxford road station. And guess what? The Bolton train is still absolutely heaving! OK they may not be quite as bad but as someone that doesn't work in the railways, that seems a long time to ignore a problem.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

They haven't ignored the problem they have increased frequencies quite a lot. But more people just came!

boltonwanderer · 15 Aug 2013

I'm sat on the 1646 from MAN to BPN as we speak. Everyday the service is chronically overcrowded, crushed in like sardines, and first class empty (not been declassified, but that's a different story altogether)

So, my point is that when the timetable changes are introduced and Bolton loses the Scotland services it is going to be an absolute nightmare. Northern haven't got the stock to strengthen services so to maintain the status quo, and it appears that TPE will not be using the freed up 185's on other routes through Bolton. An already chronically over crowded line (that has been overcrowded for many years) is going to get a whole lot worse.

What with the fare increase as well it might be time to get back in the car

I like the idea of a Bolton - Manc shuttle services. There's definitely the demand, but not enough rolling stock at the moment. I'm unsure how this would work sound current workings and available paths

WatcherZero · 15 Aug 2013

1646? Your sat right in the middle of peak! 4-6pm, if you travelled earlier or later you would find far more seats on the service.

Services to Blackpool and Blackburn in the evening peak from Manchester are always packed with Boltonians only going a short hop. Theres more space on trains from Victoria to Bolton in the peak because Northern can put on peak shuttles there.

boltonwanderer · 16 Aug 2013

WatcherZero said:
1646? Your sat right in the middle of peak! 4-6pm, if you travelled earlier or later you would find far more seats on the service c

Silly me finishing work during during "peak" time. I wondered why it was so busy, thanks for the insight. I'd have never have guessed.

WatcherZero · 16 Aug 2013

Indeed it is blindingly obvious, its like going into a supermarket at 10pm and complaining theres never any bread or milk on the shelves all day.

boltonwanderer · 16 Aug 2013

WatcherZero said:
Indeed it is blindingly obvious, its like going into a supermarket at 10pm and complaining theres never any bread or milk on the shelves all day.

Although with the advent of 24 hour supermarkets this is not a problem anymore

Anyway, my point was that services are over stretched now, and is likely to get worse when the Scotland services no longer routed via Bolton. Whether this on a peak service or not, it's going to get a whole lot worse!

Xenophon PCDGS · 16 Aug 2013

Just a random idea for the future. When the Todmorden Chord is functional, why not run the Blackburn-Accrington-Rochdale-Manchester Victoria services into the bay platform at Bolton, which will obviate any need for terminating at Manchester Victoria and cause no blockage to the running lines at Bolton.
.

snail · 16 Aug 2013

boltonwanderer said:
I'm sat on the 1646 from MAN to BPN as we speak. Everyday the service is chronically overcrowded, crushed in like sardines, and first class empty

So there's your answer. A first class season between Manchester and Bolton works out about £7 per working day.

pemma · 16 Aug 2013

Beveridges · 16 Aug 2013

I like the idea of a Bolton - Manc shuttle services. There's definitely the demand, but not enough rolling stock at the moment.

Top & Tail 47's with MK2's, get them doing it, instead of sat around in sidings at Crewe doing nothing

Darren R · 16 Aug 2013

jcollins said:
Just done a search for Manchester Airport to Carlisle trains post-Dec 13 timetable change in open train times and the following direct services were found

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82683/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82685/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82694/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82698/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82702/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82705/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82713/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82718/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82723/2013-12-23
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82725/2013-12-23

Note the 16:00 and 17:00 departures remain via Bolton, with the rest probably via Wigan but the 10:00 departure has no calling points between Manchester Oxford Rd and Preston so it's not possible to say for certain.

So the peak services are still going via Bolton - it looks like they do in the morning too. It seemed unlikely that the timetable planning mob would leave a black hole in the rush hour!

I wonder why the 1000 from the Airport runs non-stop through Wigan NW?

MidnightFlyer · 17 Aug 2013

Darren R said:
I wonder why the 1000 from the Airport runs non-stop through Wigan NW?

It's only 4 mins behind a Euston-Brum-Glasgow train which calls at North Western, perhaps that has some bearing?

Incidentally, the train in front has a class 9 reporting number...

Johnny Lewis · 17 Aug 2013

MattE2010 said:
It's only 4 mins behind a Euston-Brum-Glasgow train which calls at North Western, perhaps that has some bearing?

Incidentally, the train in front has a class 9 reporting number...

It appears that all the new London Euston - Birmingham - Glasgow Central / Edinburgh services are going to have class 9 reporting numbers, presumably to better distinguish them at Rugby from London Euston - Trent Valley - Scotland services. And indeed at Stafford for the southbound services.

Philip · 17 Aug 2013

Well it's purely an idea thought up by myself but I was thinking perhaps one idea to increase capacity once the North TPE route is electrified in 3-4 years would be to send the spare 185s (released from Liverpool-Newcastle diagrams) to the Marches and have them on a revised Manchester-Cardiff service. Cardiff-West Wales would have its own separate regional service operated by 158s and 175s. This would enable first class on the route and would increase the number of carriages, as currently the service has a mixture of 2 and 3 car units. Also journey times could be shortened slightly with the quicker acceleration of 185.

In turn, this would free up 6 or 7 175s which could then be used to operate a new hourly Manchester Piccadilly-Barrow/Windermere service, run by Northern or whoever has it then, also with the possibility of a new hourly Oxford Road/Victoria-Bolton shuttle service as well as the Windermere-Oxenholme shuttle (again using 175s). They could still come off Alstom at Chester in the morning and work an existing ECS move to Manchester doubled up with another 175 bound for a Llandudno diagram.

Nice idea?

Xenophon PCDGS · 17 Aug 2013

I think the Class 185 units that would be released after the electrification projects has been completed should be used on strengthening the existing Class 185 services.

Since the Class 175 units do not have a first-class section, do I take it from your proposal to use these on services to either Barrow-in-Furness or to Windermere will reflect the lack of such a demand for first-class travel on either of these two services ?

Manchester - Blackpool & Scotland TPEx Changes

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