Police presence on late night trains.

ChiefPlanner · 24 Sep 2013

Used to have terrible problems on the 2320 Watford - Euston and the 2317 Euston to Watford DC trains , despite precautions being taken , they were virtually no go areas and damaged / soiled on many occasions. Late trains on the St Albans branch were removed for this reason - and this was back in the 90's. The problem in London can transfer (thanks to many all night clubs etc). to very early morning trains on Sat - and less so on a Sunday. Much of it drink related of course , but drugs also an issue - as most teenagers can get these easier than "legal" alcohol.

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JGR · 24 Sep 2013

If you remove "problem trains" then the trains or other public transport immediately before or after just become problematic instead.
Likewise if you make drinks in pubs more expensive, people will get drunk elsewhere to the same effect.

You could also argue that there is perhaps a greater need for more police in the drinking areas themselves, rather than on transport leading away.

David Dunning · 24 Sep 2013

Harlesden said:
An old fart's point of view.
The two services - the 2320 ex MCO and the 2338 ex LIV - should both be withdrawn on the basis that the cost of policing them far outweighs the revenue earned, and the users of the two services seem to have repeatedly proved that they cannot be trusted to behave in a decent and socially acceptable manner.
The legal minimum age for purchasing alcohol and consuming alcohol in any public place including the street should be raised to 25.

interesting point , but if you examine race day trains in York and the last York to Middlesboro on a Saturday you'd be best off increasing the legal minimum age to 65

142094 · 24 Sep 2013

I've noticed in the past few years that the early morning services (around 0600) can be problematic due to those staying out a lot longer and going home on the first trains back. Equally, with the tendency to pre-drink at home then go out, trains on some nights after say 8pm can also have a lot of drunks and trouble makers.

tony6499 · 24 Sep 2013

142094 said:
I've noticed in the past few years that the early morning services (around 0600) can be problematic due to those staying out a lot longer and going home on the first trains back. Equally, with the tendency to pre-drink at home then go out, trains on some nights after say 8pm can also have a lot of drunks and trouble makers.

Totally agree, the problem hours range from early evening and a visit to Tescos and start the drinking on the journey in right through till 0600 and even later the next morning.

Not sure what the railways can do as it is a social problem

142094 · 24 Sep 2013

tony6499 said:
Not sure what the railways can do as it is a social problem

Not much unfortunately, just pick up the pieces. Classic example last month I had was a drunk passed out on the platform at half 5 in the morning, who must have arrived at the station between the shutters opening and the first train. In the past this would have been say a Saturday or Sunday morning (this time a Tuesday morning), but it seems as if every night is now party night for some people.

merlodlliw · 24 Sep 2013

ainsworth74 said:
See the US, drinking age is 21 meaning they can do all of the above but not buy alcohol. Also note it doesn't appear to prevent any problems around excessive drinking. Indeed there is a school of thought growing over there that making the age 21 is making the problem worse...

Prohobiting drinking until 25 will do nothing, at all, to prevent the current issues we face.

The US had prohibition, it did not stop people drinking, they drank bootleg booze, distilled in a bath & many went blind. Many of these youngsters pick up the habit in Spain on holiday where the duty is less, or an all in deal.

Age will make no difference. BTW all US states have different drinking laws. Under 21s drink in the US, but in many States someone else buys it. Problem is drugs are easier to obtain in the US & GB, & what the hell is a shot, another word for paint stripper

sheff1 · 24 Sep 2013

About a year ago, Scotrail introduced a no drinking / no drunks policy after 2100. Has anyone had first hand experience on whether this has had a noticable change on late night trains ?

ChiefPlanner · 24 Sep 2013

142094 said:
Not much unfortunately, just pick up the pieces. Classic example last month I had was a drunk passed out on the platform at half 5 in the morning, who must have arrived at the station between the shutters opening and the first train. In the past this would have been say a Saturday or Sunday morning (this time a Tuesday morning), but it seems as if every night is now party night for some people.

Regrettably a fact of life - you see the odd "casualty" on Thameslink mid week - recall assisting one with a bottle of vodka on the go at / before 6am - a real societal problem. But one even the Continent has to contend with.....

Aldaniti · 24 Sep 2013

tony6499 said:
Totally agree, the problem hours range from early evening and a visit to Tescos and start the drinking on the journey in right through till 0600 and even later the next morning.

Not sure what the railways can do as it is a social problem

The first train from Wigan Wallgate on a Saturday morning can sometimes be a more unpleasant experience than necessary. Another legacy of that awful man, Tony Blair.

BestWestern · 25 Sep 2013

broadgage:1574125 said:
BestWestern said:

Highly likely that they were there at the request of the TOC, either - most probably - by prior arrangement because it is a 'problem' train, or perhaps due to a particular incident or an event that evening. It would be superb if every saturday night train had a copper in every carriage, alas sadly not. Some services suffer from significant issues so frequently that arrangements are made for the train to be accompanied every time (sometimes only after the crews have refused to work it otherwise). There are also a fair few which are double crewed, with two Guards or similar as an extra precaution. The 20.20 from Weymouth on a saturday when showing a full quota has two Guards, two Drivers, BTP and the area on call manager on board, plus a booze ban. Sometimes they manage to find space for a few passengers too! And usually a few idiots will still kick off :-l

Click to expand...

I can see the point of 2 guards, plus police, and a manager, but why 2 drivers ?

I have a feeling the second Driver just ended up travelling on it to get back, that may not be the case any more. The rest of the entourage is still supposed to be there every week however!

I personally think the recent proposals for 'drunk tanks' are a worthwhile idea. P*ssed idiots need something substantially more unpleasant than the threat of a copper picking them up off the floor and sending them home. A couple of overnights sleeping in a pool of communial puke and with nothing available to soothe a sore head might well encourage a little more responsibility in some.

8J · 25 Sep 2013

The way to combat this in my opinion is not to increase the legal drinking age. It is to employ investigators to track down and punish these offenders. More CCTV on the trains and better tecniques used by the BTP and rail industry to track down these offenders. I don't think Northern Trains 150's or 156's have CCTV do they?

Another interesting fact is that 'The National Service Bill" is currently being reviewed in parliament. I think that a way to combat anti social behaviour would not be to send every male youth to the army for a year (in my experience, its the females who are the worst! ) what that should do is say that anyone with any criminal record whatsoever between the ages of 18-26 has to do a year of national service. Essentially this is an incentive for people to be more responsible on their nights out to avoid national service. Thoughts?

jon0844 · 25 Sep 2013

I think national service (or something similar) could work wonders. In theory at least.

One problem is that the army probably doesn't want some of these people, as by 18 onwards a lot of bad attitudes have already become habitual.

Learning respect is probably something needed from a very early age at school.

Wyvern · 25 Sep 2013

Just make sure you keep away from the garrison towns of a weekend.

Out of sight. Out of mind. ?

beano900 · 25 Sep 2013

Ah, the P1sshead Express as I like to call it. Been on it quite a few times, mainly after having a few myself. I've never seen any problems but I wouldn't fancy traveling on it sober. Lots of loud people taking utter nonsense within the confines of a Northern sprinter.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

ainsworth74 · 25 Sep 2013

jonmorris0844 said:
One problem is that the army probably doesn't want some of these people, as by 18 onwards a lot of bad attitudes have already become habitual.

Forget if the army want them or not (though the answer would be no they don't) I'm not sure many taxpayers will want it once they realise how expensive it would be to train, equip and maintain all the extra troops National Service would entail...

Greenback · 25 Sep 2013

JGR said:
If you remove "problem trains" then the trains or other public transport immediately before or after just become problematic instead.

Agreed.

JGR said:
Likewise if you make drinks in pubs more expensive, people will get drunk elsewhere to the same effect.

This has already happened. Many people now start drinking supermarket booze before leaving the house to go out. They might then have a couple in the pub to get well tanked up before heading off to a nightspot. I see this frequently around here on Saturday evening trains. When going into Swansea from Llanelli on a late Saturday afternoon or early evening, it is obvious who has been drinking for some hours at home! They often have drinks with them, probably bought from the local Tesco.

Naturally, those heading off for a night out are in good spirits and there is not normally the problems associated with later trains. When people are heading home they are not always in the same happy frame of mind as when they went out. Arguments with friends and partners become greatly exaggerated where copious amounts of alcohol are involved, and such things often contribute to the trouble that occasionally flares up.

Tetchytyke · 25 Sep 2013

Wasn't it the Manchester football derby on Saturday?

rebmcr · 25 Sep 2013

beano900 said:
Ah, the P1sshead Express as I like to call it. Been on it quite a few times, mainly after having a few myself. I've never seen any problems but I wouldn't fancy traveling on it sober. Lots of loud people taking utter nonsense within the confines of a Northern sprinter.

I was on the LIV-MCO once, there was a small group of sobers who autonomously grouped in the seats near the rear cab. It was a Pacer that time too.

SS4 · 25 Sep 2013

Arctic Troll said:
Wasn't it the Manchester football derby on Saturday?

It was on Sunday, not sure what public transport was like though. I didn't hear anything so it was ok?

As for the national service I find it's most ardent supporters are those who are ineligible! Would they be willing to do so? Germany got rid of her equivalent a couple of years ago now and it would cost a lot of taxpayer money.

Drsatan · 25 Sep 2013

SS4 said:
As for the national service I find it's most ardent supporters are those who are ineligible! Would they be willing to do so? Germany got rid of her equivalent a couple of years ago now and it would cost a lot of taxpayer money.

The other issue of National Service is that most armies of first world countries (with a few exceptions, like Turkey) which have compulsory military service are phasing it out for a number of reasons:

The increasingly mechanised nature of warfare means that large armies of poorly trained conscripts are no longer viable
Poor quality conscripts may not be able to be trained on how to use advanced equipment (like anti-tank missile launchers, air defence missiles, infantry fighting vehicles etc)
Trained conscripts won't have the same fighting capacity as trained volunteers
Some conscripts may be unfit for military service (mental health issues, issues with authority, asthma, diabetes etc)

Russia is a country with a large conscript army, and lots of Russian men avoid military service at all costs due to the poor conditions, as this article shows

Train Pilchard · 25 Sep 2013

sheff1 said:
About a year ago, Scotrail introduced a no drinking / no drunks policy after 2100. Has anyone had first hand experience on whether this has had a noticable change on late night trains ?

It was never really much of a problem to be honest.

And if you're in a fit state with a few mates and not being loud the guard normally has no problem with it (a couple of times coming back from football games we've simply not noticed the time going past 9pm and are still having a beer and this has happened, sometimes been asked to hold it off the tables, sometimes they don't say anything).

telstarbox · 26 Sep 2013

What happens on the evening trains off Weymouth?

GodAtum · 26 Sep 2013

I finish workj at 1am but stay in the office until 6am to avoid drunks.

bAzTNM · 27 Sep 2013

142094 said:
I've noticed in the past few years that the early morning services (around 0600) can be problematic due to those staying out a lot longer and going home on the first trains back.

Yeah. I'm just a passenger but you always get the angry, ****ed off drunks at that time in the morning. You do get the odd "WHAT YOU LOOKING AT? !" from them. Saturday morning trains are the worst.

455driver · 27 Sep 2013

Drsatan said:
The other issue of National Service is that most armies of first world countries (with a few exceptions, like Turkey) which have compulsory military service are phasing it out for a number of reasons:

The increasingly mechanised nature of warfare means that large armies of poorly trained conscripts are no longer viable

Poor quality conscripts may not be able to be trained on how to use advanced equipment (like anti-tank missile launchers, air defence missiles, infantry fighting vehicles etc)

Trained conscripts won't have the same fighting capacity as trained volunteers

Some conscripts may be unfit for military service (mental health issues, issues with authority, asthma, diabetes etc)

Russia is a country with a large conscript army, and lots of Russian men avoid military service at all costs due to the poor conditions, as this article shows

They do make excellent cannon fodder though!

BestWestern · 28 Sep 2013

telstarbox:1575776 said:
What happens on the evening trains off Weymouth?

On the saturday 20.20, just general antisocial behaviour from drunken scum with no place in civilised society. Many of them tend to alight at Yeovil, with some continuing on to Trowbridge and further to Bristol. Common highlights include drunken brawls, vandalism and general loud, p*ssed yobbishness showing a complete disregard for families and other decent people travelling on board. A prime example of a train which really shouldn't be running - decent people don't want to travel like that, drunk yobs don't deserve their own personal taxi that keeps coming back regardless week after week. It's a shame, but the last train out on a saturday needs to be about half past 5 so it just isn't worth the idiots making the journey.

Tracked · 29 Sep 2013

I've used late night trains round Doncaster fairly often, not seen any trouble other than a few drunks being louder than normal, but no-one seems to be able to use a bin anymore

wrappers with half-eaten food left everywhere but the bins (ok, they are fairly small on a 321, but still), stinks out the whole carriage.

SGS · 29 Sep 2013

I was on a London-Newcastle run on Saturday evening, which the BTP attended twice. At Peterborough, a couple of ticketless lads sitting in a FC vestibule were removed, then at Doncaster a larger group were removed after a "disturbance". I was wondering - what do the BTP typically then do with people they've removed? I ask because I'm sure it's happened to people on here loads of times... :lol:

Police presence on late night trains.

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