East Coast Franchise Short Listed Bidders

Qwerty133 · 17 Jan 2014

Bishopstone said:
Anyone but First Group.

Kings Cross - Inverness is a long way to go on a short-formed driver-only train with no catering.

Cost control is important, but the East Coast deserves better than a zero ambition operator.

Anyone but stagecoach.
Kings Cross to Inverness, is much too far for a short-formed train with no catering, first class, power points or WiFi.

Unlike First, Stagecoach have called a line with the above service intercity (Liverpool to Norwich), and NO this is NOT a serious opinion!

RailUK Forums

AndrewP · 17 Jan 2014

YorkshireBear said:
Seriously?

Because that is how London Penzance has ended up isn't it?????

Euston Inverness via Sleeper does just fine.

Evidence to your point?

Completely agree - Hull Trains are excellent as well.

I think First Group could do a good job of east coast

Nozzacook · 17 Jan 2014

Arctic Troll said:
TPE is exceptionally mediocre.

First Great Western aren't too bad on the InterCity routes, but when you get beyond Reading there are some interesting stock allocations. 143s are not an uncommon sight on trains between Exeter and Plymouth, and 150s are the mainstay of the Cornish main line.

We'll just not talk about Capital Connect.

Out of the 22 services between Penzance and Plymouth only 7 are operated using 150's the rest are HST or Voyager. And on the services that are operated by 150's with a top line speed 70mph they are more than adequate especially on the all station stopper.

The 143's operate the Exmouth to Painton service so very few make it to Plymouth.

Aictos · 17 Jan 2014

Bishopstone said:
Anyone but First Group.

Kings Cross - Inverness is a long way to go on a short-formed driver-only train with no catering.

Cost control is important, but the East Coast deserves better than a zero ambition operator.

What evidence have you got to back up that childish claim? First along with Eurostar and Virgin Trains ain't likely going to operate Driver Only Trains on the ECML especially not on London to Inverness like your scaremongering suggests with only a driver and no catering :roll:

Manchester77 · 17 Jan 2014

Am I right in thinking that the Stagecoach/Virgin venture is the first with the new system on Stagecoach holding 90% with Virgin just 10% allowing the use of Virgin branding?

The comment regarding 'anyone but First Group' is quite stupid since First are the only operator who still operate a proper restaurant carriage on their Pullman services out of Paddington. TPE are quite good too, while they need extra capacity the 185s and 350s are comfortable trains.

Will be interesting to see who wins, I also guess that the media will constantly refer to it as being a two horse race between FG and Virgin with little mention of Stagecoach

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Jan 2014

Another glum day a Arriva HQ then?
I suppose it was understandable National Express did not make the short list, but it must be a blow to Arriva/DB.
On the other hand the bidders have the Alliance Rail (aka Arriva) off-the-wall Open Access proposal to contend with.
Abellio is not on the list either.

transmanche · 17 Jan 2014

Manchester77 said:
The comment regarding 'anyone but First Group' is quite stupid since First are the only operator who still operate a proper restaurant carriage on their Pullman services out of Paddington. TPE are quite good too, while they need extra capacity the 185s and 350s are comfortable trains.

Will be interesting to see who wins, I also guess that the media will constantly refer to it as being a two horse race between FG and Virgin with little mention of Stagecoach

Don't disregard Keolis - as you said "TPE are quite good too" and Keolis own 45% of that franchise (along with 35% of London Midland, Southeastern and Southern). So whilst they may appear to be the 'silent partner', I'm guessing that they have access to a huge amount of useful information which could help with their ECML franchise bid.

TEW · 17 Jan 2014

LNW-GW Joint said:
Another glum day a Arriva HQ then?
I suppose it was understandable National Express did not make the short list, but it must be a blow to Arriva/DB.
On the other hand the bidders have the Alliance Rail (aka Arriva) off-the-wall Open Access proposal to contend with.
Abellio is not on the list either.

Does anybody actually know who else bid for the franchise? Arriva would make sense, but I'm not aware of Abellio having any track record of bidding for intercity franchises.

LowLevel · 17 Jan 2014

As far as I know, the DfT have confirmed to the RMT in a recent meeting that DOO will not be specified in the franchise agreement for the East Coast, unlike on the two 'commuter' franchises down south, so read into that what you will - I don't think DOO is likely to appear at all (any time soon at least) on Regional Railways or Intercity style services outside the South East and possibly something like Merseyrail.

Manchester77 · 17 Jan 2014

TEW said:
Does anybody actually know who else bid for the franchise? Arriva would make sense, but I'm not aware of Abellio having any track record of bidding for intercity franchises.

Didn't they bid for the failed ICWC franchise?

Captain Chaos · 17 Jan 2014

LowLevel said:
As far as I know, the DfT have confirmed to the RMT in a recent meeting that DOO will not be specified in the franchise agreement for the East Coast, unlike on the two 'commuter' franchises down south, so read into that what you will - I don't think DOO is likely to appear at all (any time soon at least) on Regional Railways or Intercity style services outside the South East and possibly something like Merseyrail.

I don't think it will either. I can't see the logic in running an intercity operation like East Coast or FGW etc DOO. You're still, using reasoning, going to have staff on-board other than the driver anyway. For Customer Service at the very least. The DOO cameras may be there. But they could be specified so as the trains can be used on DOO routes for other purposes in a later life?

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Jan 2014

Manchester77 said:
Didn't they bid for the failed ICWC franchise?

They failed to make the short list.

ModernRailways · 17 Jan 2014

I personally would like to see the Keolis/Eurostar venture succeed! It will be something new with Eurostar but will also keep Keolis' knowledge. I also imagine that Eurostar would put something on (a deal) to get you to Europe!

First Group to me are very corporate orientated. Stagecoach/Virgin hold a very customer friendly approach on the WCML, and Eurostar/Kelios also appear very customer friendly with some Eurostar staff being the best with a very friendly attitude. Hopefully that would continue on the ECML.

YorkshireBear · 17 Jan 2014

ModernRailways said:
I personally would like to see the Keolis/Eurostar venture succeed! It will be something new with Eurostar but will also keep Keolis' knowledge. I also imagine that Eurostar would put something on (a deal) to get you to Europe!

First Group to me are very corporate orientated. Stagecoach/Virgin hold a very customer friendly approach on the WCML, and Eurostar/Kelios also appear very customer friendly with some Eurostar staff being the best with a very friendly attitude. Hopefully that would continue on the ECML.

That is what i would hope from the franchise, good through fares to Paris.

DarloRich · 17 Jan 2014

Some sillyness posted here - people more worried about the colour of the trains. Do you honestly think it will make any difference, really? IEP is specified for the route, all will have to use it.

Essexman · 17 Jan 2014

Bishopstone said:
Anyone but First Group.

Kings Cross - Inverness is a long way to go on a short-formed driver-only train with no catering.

Cost control is important, but the East Coast deserves better than a zero ambition operator.

I'd be very happy to see First's Pullman Restaurants & Travelling Ceks on the ECML.

But very unhappy to see Virgin's Pendolinos.

SkinnyDave · 17 Jan 2014

Essexman said:
I'd be very happy to see First's Pullman Restaurants & Travelling Ceks on the ECML.

But very unhappy to see Virgin's Pendolinos.

Some folk must be on the wind up here???

Pendolinos have nothing to do with this bid! :-x
The Hitachi IEP trains have already been ordered for this franchise!

thenorthern · 17 Jan 2014

Just a question the First Group bid for it last time and their bid got stopped before the franchise was awarded does anyone know why that was or was is the CrossCountry franchise I was thinking of?

I also notice National Express have not bid again are they and SeaCo still banned or not?

Darandio · 17 Jan 2014

thenorthern said:
Just a question the First Group bid for it last time and their bid got stopped before the franchise was awarded does anyone know why that was or was is the CrossCountry franchise I was thinking of?

That was the West Coast debacle.

telstarbox · 17 Jan 2014

Shame that The Big Lemon's bid didn't make it past the qualification stage.

anthony263 · 17 Jan 2014

thenorthern said:
Just a question the First Group bid for it last time and their bid got stopped before the franchise was awarded does anyone know why that was or was is the CrossCountry franchise I was thinking of?

I also notice National Express have not bid again are they and SeaCo still banned or not?

Nothing to stop National Express bidding perhaps they decided not to bother with the east coast franchise instead favouring spending resources on bidding for other upcoming franchises (Such as the GW which National Express were shortlisted I believe before everything when up in flames). However after the whole West Coast fiastco I did read somewhere about National Express saying they might not bother biding for any uk franchises.

I am hoping National Express do bid for the Wales and Borders franchise when it is put out for tender since they did a good job before Arriva took over. (Not to say Arriva havent done a good job)

Not sure about Sea Containers are they even trading still?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

telstarbox said:
Shame that The Big Lemon's bid didn't make it past the qualification stage.

Didnt know they even put a bid in

Aictos · 17 Jan 2014

SkinnyDave said:
Some folk must be on the wind up here???

Pendolinos have nothing to do with this bid! :-x
The Hitachi IEP trains have already been ordered for this franchise!

It's the same idiots who think we will have DOO trains with no catering like we're really going to have 317s/321s/365s running services such as the 05:40 Edinburgh to Kings Cross service

IEP trains have already been ordered for both the ECML & GWML and that's what we're having like you're rightly said fella *thumbs up*

westv · 17 Jan 2014

If First win I wonder if there'll be any sort of link up with Hull Trains?

tbtc · 17 Jan 2014

westv said:
If First win I wonder if there'll be any sort of link up with Hull Trains?

I think that this is a much bigger question than worrying about "will First run 143s from London to Inverness" (NO) or "will Virgin be banned from running two TOCs that marginally overlap (no, of course not - how come we are merging Thameslink with Southern if we are so worried about competition?).

Whilst we've hada lot of franchises change hands (including seeing one company winning a franchise that parallels routes they already operate on - e.g. GoAhead can run Southern which parallels bits of SouthEastern and also LondonMidland), we've never seen a company winning a franchise that parallels an Open Access operation that they already operate.

transmanche · 17 Jan 2014

westv said:
If First win I wonder if there'll be any sort of link up with Hull Trains?

Depends what sort of link-up you mean. For example there are some TP/HT-only fares Sheffield-London. So possibly yes.

But there could be a big problem if they used the First branding on both EC and HT, with radically different policies for ticket purchase on-board and specific-TOC tickets.

However DfT are letting this franchise differently. The successful bidder will purchase the East Coast Mainline Company Ltd from the government, instead of transferring assets (and TUPEing staff) to a new trading company. Included in those assets will be the East Coast 'brand' and the franchisee will be required to transfer that on to any new franchisee at the end of franchise. If they choose to use a different brand (e.g. First East Coast), then they will be responsible for all the costs of removing that brand at the end of the franchise.

(Personally I preferred the 'East Coast' branding used by the shadow franchise before GNER took over... but that's just me!)

Source: ICEC Franchise Prospectus - section 5.11

Muzer · 17 Jan 2014

Given what happened with Wrexham & Shropshire's collaboration with Chiltern due to being owned by the same company (them getting reprimanded for it), I'm not sure we'd be likely to see much. I'd expect First would either leave well alone in that regard, unless they did want to go the whole hog and bring all the open-access operations under the franchised company in some way.

YorkshireBear · 17 Jan 2014

Muzer said:
Given what happened with Wrexham & Shropshire's collaboration with Chiltern due to being owned by the same company (them getting reprimanded for it), I'm not sure we'd be likely to see much. I'd expect First would either leave well alone in that regard, unless they did want to go the whole hog and bring all the open-access operations under the franchised company in some way.

I suppose it would make it much easier for them to say we are introducing services to Hull. Wind up the OAO and just incorporate into their franchise. No loss of money for first as it is still them providing the service.

Marton · 17 Jan 2014

gordonthemoron said:
...Middlesborough..

Middlesbrough

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tbtc · 17 Jan 2014

YorkshireBear said:
I suppose it would make it much easier for them to say we are introducing services to Hull. Wind up the OAO and just incorporate into their franchise. No loss of money for first as it is still them providing the service.

I suppose that the two questions are:

1. Would they want to do that (since any EC franchise is for a finite period, whereas they may have ambitions to operate Hull Trains even after the next EC franchise period has ended)?

2. Could they do that (transferring paths from one operation to another? Chiltern were in trouble for getting WSMR to take on some of their franchise requirements, but then that was using the OAO to replace part of the TOC - in the Hull case it would be the other way round)?

(and I say that as a critic of most OAO - I think its generally a waste and a duplication of resources and would much rather that Sunderland/ Hull saw all of their services rolled in to the main EC franchise)

thenorthern · 17 Jan 2014

It was the CrossCountry franchise I was thinking of earlier.
http://www.scotsman.com/business/firstgroup-s-franchise-bid-hits-buffers-1-1419130

Merging First Hull Trains and First East Coast may be an idea as unlike Wrexham and Shropshire First Hull Trains has a service that is successful.

East Coast Franchise Short Listed Bidders

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