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Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

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hairyhandedfool

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Hate to be pedantic but for the top two you need to insert the word "wholly" between "journeys" and "within". You can still travel from West Yorkshire to South Yorkshire (and vice versa) on an off peak ticket within the new afternoon peak times.

Definition: Within

Preposition.

inside (something).
"the spread of fire within the building"
synonyms: inside, in, within the bounds/confines of, enclosed by, surrounded by
"within the walls of the prison"
 
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Jdrowlands

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I used a CDR to travel from Penistone to Huddersfield and back today, since I'm waiting for a formal response from Northern/Passenger Focus regarding my season ticket. The guard on the way back didn't know that the new restrictions only applied to tickets either wholly within West Yorkshire or wholly within South Yorkshire, and tried to tell me that my CDR was no longer valid in the evening peaks from this week. I explained how the new restrictions worked and he said he'd "look into it" :roll:
 

noddingdonkey

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If the train scheduled is late, I presume you can catch it.
If it's cancelled, I'm sure you could catch the next timetabled train, otherwise the following guard will have to put up with plenty of disgruntled passengers - first with the cancellation and next decause of the price-hike due to the cancellation! Common sense would prevail...???

NRCOC rule 11 could be seen as applying I think?

If, as a result of a delay to your train, the validity of the ticket you are using expires during your journey, you will still be allowed to complete that journey. However, in these circumstances, you may not break your journey unless your train is so delayed that a break
is reasonably required.
 

yorkie

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I used a CDR to travel from Penistone to Huddersfield and back today, since I'm waiting for a formal response from Northern/Passenger Focus regarding my season ticket. The guard on the way back didn't know that the new restrictions only applied to tickets either wholly within West Yorkshire or wholly within South Yorkshire, and tried to tell me that my CDR was no longer valid in the evening peaks from this week. I explained how the new restrictions worked and he said he'd "look into it" :roll:
Unfortunately Northern's vew is that, although Penistone is in South Yorkshire and Moorthorpe in West Yorkshire, the restriction still applies because Moorthorpe is still considered to be part of the South Yorkshire travel area (in addition to West Yorkshire). The CDR restriction text confirms this has been applied.

Restriction Code: ND
OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on trains timed to depart between 0930 - 1600 inc and from 1830 onwards.

RETURN TRAVEL
Any train the same day except those timed to depart between 1601 - 1829 inc
 

yorksrob

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Well, staff were out in force on Leeds station informing people of the restrictions. Sadly, but not surprisingly, there was no one from the Department of Transport to speak to.

My MP has responded saying she has received similar complaints from people and was taking it up with Northern Rail. I hope she looks between the lines and subjects the real culprits to scrutiny.
 

yorkie

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Well, staff were out in force on Leeds station informing people of the restrictions. Sadly, but not surprisingly, there was no one from the Department of Transport to speak to.

My MP has responded saying she has received similar complaints from people and was taking it up with Northern Rail. I hope she looks between the lines and subjects the real culprits to scrutiny.
Were there plenty of staff on hand to issue excess fares, or were they letting people off?

According to Northerns passenger charter, they will " try to ensure you will not have to wait more than five minutes in busy periods and three minutes at all other times", are they deploying extra ticket issuing staff at those times to handle the demand for excess fares and ensure queues are no greater than 5 minutes, or are they going to breach their charter?

If I was placing a bet, I'd bet on the latter.
 

yorksrob

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Were there plenty of staff on hand to issue excess fares, or were they letting people off?

According to Northerns passenger charter, they will " try to ensure you will not have to wait more than five minutes in busy periods and three minutes at all other times", are they deploying extra ticket issuing staff at those times to handle the demand for excess fares and ensure queues are no greater than 5 minutes, or are they going to breach their charter?

If I was placing a bet, I'd bet on the latter.

Giving out leaflets and chatting. No noticeable excessing going on !
 

WatcherZero

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In evening peak lot of revenue protection staff out and about, but weirdly mainly on the platforms into Manchester. Dont think public were bothering much with new restrictions and staff wernt stopping them other than asking what time they would be returning when selling tickets. Would have thought there would be platform announcements but nothing.

Saying that however the first offpeak Southport service out of Manchester at 6:29 was a double pacer and packed while earlier peak trains were shorter and only about half full.
 

northernchris

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Would have thought there would be platform announcements but nothing.

There were recorded announcements at Keighley station this morning, in addition to the message on the CIS which has been showing for around a week now. On a couple of trains I caught last week conductors made announcements to advise of the upcoming changes too.

Whilst I like the idea of my homeward train being potentially quieter I don't see how the scheme is going to be enforced, particularly as its not practicable for conductors to check tickets on many peak services due to passenger numbers. Are ticket gates being programmed to reject invalid tickets at Leeds, Bradford, Oxford Road and Blackpool?
 

bb21

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Unfortunately Northern's vew is that, although Penistone is in South Yorkshire and Moorthorpe in West Yorkshire, the restriction still applies because Moorthorpe is still considered to be part of the South Yorkshire travel area (in addition to West Yorkshire). The CDR restriction text confirms this has been applied.

Not for Penistone to Huddersfield. ;)
 

hairyhandedfool

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Were there plenty of staff on hand to issue excess fares, or were they letting people off?

According to Northerns passenger charter, they will " try to ensure you will not have to wait more than five minutes in busy periods and three minutes at all other times", are they deploying extra ticket issuing staff at those times to handle the demand for excess fares and ensure queues are no greater than 5 minutes, or are they going to breach their charter?

If I was placing a bet, I'd bet on the latter.

Not sure how you can say they didn't "try" to ensure those times were met. They could ask staff to work extra hours or come in on rest days, but the staff don't have to say yes.
 

Merseysider

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Saying that however the first offpeak Southport service out of Manchester at 6:29 was a double pacer and packed while earlier peak trains were shorter and only about half full.

Sounds like the problem of peak overcrowding hasn't been solved at all, instead just moved to other trains.
 

Starmill

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I've been busy elsewhere today so I didn't get to see very much, but the manual announcements at Manchester Airport were saying that new restrictions were in place on some tickets, and to ask the conductor of your train which ones were affected. I wonder if anyone could have done so within 5 minutes, as I'm pretty sure I couldn't give an accurate explanation in a few sentences.

STM as ever just walk straight past them.

As usual, the guard didn't even leave the cab on my train from Manchester Piccadilly to Mauldeth Road, so no excessing going on there :p
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Definition: Within

Preposition.

inside (something).
"the spread of fire within the building"
synonyms: inside, in, within the bounds/confines of, enclosed by, surrounded by
"within the walls of the prison"

Not sure how you can say they didn't "try" to ensure those times were met. They could ask staff to work extra hours or come in on rest days, but the staff don't have to say yes.

I think you enjoy being an element of implacable facetiousness a little bit too much!
 

WatcherZero

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Didnt hear any announcements at Wigan Wallgate, Man Pic, Salford Crescent or Deansgate in the time I was in them today, no scrolling PID messages either.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Sounds like the problem of peak overcrowding hasn't been solved at all, instead just moved to other trains.

Not sure you can make that judgement based on one day, even if it is true.

....I think you enjoy being an element of implacable facetiousness a little bit too much!

I don't know what you mean, I was trying to enlighten a forum member in regards of how 'wholly' wasn't required in my post and I'm really not sure how Yorkie can say Northern haven't tried.
 

yorksrob

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Not sure you can make that judgement based on one day, even if it is true.

We can make a pretty good guess that it's not going to improve anything because it's not originated from the railway company, the PTE's or anybody who knows what's going on on the ground. It's been imposed from on high by bureaucrats.
 

Starmill

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We can make a pretty good guess that it's not going to improve anything because it's not originated from the railway company, the PTE's or anybody who knows what's going on on the ground. It's been imposed from on high by bureaucrats.

Making your evening peak journey more comfortable isn't actually their objective, so it won't be considered a failure even if it doesn't do that ;)
 

yorksrob

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Making your evening peak journey more comfortable isn't actually their objective, so it won't be considered a failure even if it doesn't do that ;)

Well, we all know what their objective is. But then again, if the change is going to affect as few people as Northern claim, it won't make any money either :lol:
 

johntea

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May already have been discussed but I assume railcards can still be used for the afternoon peak?

The conductor on the 6pm Leeds to Knottingley service had a rather difficult time getting access to his cab never mind checking if people had the right ticket! In fact rather than explain the ticket changes over the tannoy he decided to explain how to get in touch with Northern Rail to complain about the short formed unit! :lol: (Actually been a few months since I last caught this service but I never ever remember it being so busy!)

I have also found the information posters to be rather poor, they all seem biased towards 'you need an anytime ticket' rather than 'don't worry if you have an off peak ticket, as it can be excessed'. In fact, I had to dig into the northernrail.org/offpeak FAQ section to find the word 'excess'!

I also found this rather amusing :

 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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The BBC TV North-West News is also good to watch in case a piece of poorly researched imaging should appear and they lived up to their reputation tonight in one of three ticketing examples by renaming Woodmoor station as Woodsmore...:roll:
 

telstarbox

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I'm guessing that Northern are allowing a bedding-in period for passengers to get used to the changes, and to avert (additional) PR disasters...
 

Starmill

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Do they keep changing the map on the website?

Why does the red extend to Handforth, Styal, Disley and Birchwood?

And why does the line go out beyond Littleborough and Bromley Cross but not anywhere else? What happens between Patrifroft and Newton-le-Willows?

And also:

For stations / routes marked in green restrictions apply to/from these locations to Manchester / Salford stations.

Appears to be an untruth. The restrictions appear to apply from that station to Manchester or Salford and any intermediate stations that are within Greater Manchester.

Wilmslow - Manchester has evening peak restrictions, as do Wilmslow - Stockport and Wilmslow - Cheadle Hulme, but Wilmslow - Handforth. Interestingly, Wilmslow - Manchester Airport has been evening peak restricted too! And also Wilmslow - East Didsbury, even though it doesn't seem to be valid via Manchester.

Talk about blanketing restrictions!? It's almost no travel from anywhere to anywhere between those times. Looks like Manchester has been singled out for some of the harshest restrictions in the whole country.

Edit - I have downloaded the map from the website and attached it 'v4' eh!

Furthermore, can anyone help me with 'what happens if':

I start my journey in the affected area before 16.01 but have to change trains in the affected area after 16.01?
You can still travel on an off-peak ticket for the first part of your journey, but you will need to have an anytime fare or equivalent for the second leg of your journey.

I start my journey before 16.01 outside of the affected area and change trains after 16.01 in the affected area?
You can still travel on an off-peak ticket.

I'm struggling to see how this is reflected in the restriction codes.

And:
...to change these times would have meant a very complex message and inconsistency across the area.
Sounds like a pretty good description of the way they have chosen to do it to me actually.

Another poor show:

How do I know if my ticket is affected?

If you usually travel on an off-peak ticket in the affected areas in the evening peak then you will probably need to buy an anytime ticket or travel on an earlier or later train.

Alternatively, you can speak to a member of staff at one of our ticket offices who will be able to help.

'Probably'? What if your station doesn't have a ticket office? Or one with uselessly short hours? Why is there no reference to checking restriction codes?

To summarise:

We recognise that some people who use these type of tickets might not be regular customers, which is why our staff are on hand to help them make sure they have the right type of ticket for their journey.

Yes, I have unwavering confidence in you and your staff to ensure I am getting the right deal after reading all that, and I am " fully aware of the changes that are happening, when and what it means for [me]".
 

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185

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So...

What is Northern's big plot here?

I reckon they are "doing a TPE" doing something to make the service abysmally poor, then being seen to improve things in the hope everyone thinks they are improving the service immensely.

TPE did this with the class 158 fleet, which were pretty much fine under Arriva in 2003. As soon as 2004 came along, everything happened from the hopper windows falling off to a hole appearing in a cab floor at 90mph. Then... boom, along came the (government funded) 185s and all of a sudden they come up smelling of roses.

Bearing in mind, by my reckoning, these restrictions will only likely bring in £1500-2000 per day at best, small fry in the bigger picture on the railway....
I reckon this is a pathetic cheap ploy by Northern to do a U-turn a couple of months into the restrictions and look like the people's heroes, when they are infact.... crooks.

Someone will tell me I'm wrong, of course :P
 

Philip C

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The BBC TV North-West News is also good to watch in case a piece of poorly researched imaging should appear and they lived up to their reputation tonight in one of three ticketing examples by renaming Woodmoor station as Woodsmore...:roll:

It is Woodsmoor though the Ordnance Survey 1:50,000 offers Woods Moor as if it would more correct be!
 
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Craglad1975

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It started Monday the 8th between the hours of 16:01 and 18:29 and if you start your journey at say 15:55 and have to change trains you need to get a any time ticket which to me is wrong
 

Starmill

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It started Monday the 8th between the hours of 16:01 and 18:29 and if you start your journey at say 15:55 and have to change trains you need to get a any time ticket which to me is wrong

Depends where you are changing trains according to the Northern website.

Of course, this is totally unfair. Restrictions should be defined very differently to how these have been done if you actually want to influence peak flow.

I can only hope that common sense will be applied and people using the 1829 Buxton - Manchester Piccadilly train and other ones like it caught unfairly in the trap of this nonsense will not be charged.

Presumably the large number of passengers who currently travel without buying tickets will continue to do so in any case.
 
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