class 60s stored at Toton

tadhatter · 11 Nov 2014

I've been curious about this for a while now and having recently popped over to Toton on Sunday afternoon it raised my curiosity further.

I'm sure most will know that there is a line of 24 stored 60s at the north east of Toton across the mainline tracks away from the depot. But there are also pockets of 60s also dotted around various sidings all around Toton on the west and depot side - some, I've observed, also haven't moved for years.

Thus my question is this: of the 24 in line with currently no other rolling stock in those sidings (and therefore making excellent photography possibilities) is it right to assume that these are the ones in the worst condition and therefore highly unlikely to be in revenue earning service? And are the ones dotted around elsewhere are in better condition and have potential to be re-instated or sold?

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Strathclyder · 11 Nov 2014

I think it's safe to say that some of the ones that have been stored out in the open at Toton for years are unlikely to move under their own power again.

Are the 6 locos at Crewe stored under cover or are they out in the open?

fishquinn · 11 Nov 2014

I don't think any of the 24 at the front will move again.

TorqueOfTheDevil · 11 Nov 2014

In which case, why not scrap them? Presumably their scrap value will gradually drop as their condition deteriorates, and scrap metal values have been pretty good in recent years. Given that some of them are only just over 20 years old, are they really beyond help?

tadhatter · 11 Nov 2014

TorqueOfTheDevil said:
In which case, why not scrap them? Presumably their scrap value will gradually drop as their condition deteriorates, and scrap metal values have been pretty good in recent years. Given that some of them are only just over 20 years old, are they really beyond help?

Pretty much my thinking too. Especially given that most of them haven't seen regular action for about 10 years! Their engine hours must be well under the planned/designed usage.

455driver · 11 Nov 2014

fishquinn said:
I don't think any of the 24 at the front will move again.

Every single one of them will move again, I would put money on that fact!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

tadhatter said:
Pretty much my thinking too. Especially given that most of them haven't seen regular action for about 10 years! Their engine hours must be well under the planned/designed usage.

They are either well over 18000 hours or have serious engine problems such as a conrod through the side.

bigdelboy · 11 Nov 2014

I assume some still remain a good spares source. It is also I suppose a possible option if a quorum batch become asset stripped and generally degraded to reburbish them with a new prime mover and control system and wiring (as per e.g. class 57; 7395x ; 7396x). You can't do that option if you've sent them to scrap. Indeed The best candidate for rebuild may well be the one that has least much useful left in it.

BestWestern · 11 Nov 2014

What an appaling waste. Very few of these would have been beyond repair when they were stopped, sadly EWS just had no interest in doing anything constructive with them, dumping perfectly decent rolling stock in order to flood the network with far too many of something else.

tadhatter · 11 Nov 2014

455driver said:
They are either well over 18000 hours or have serious engine problems such as a conrod through the side.

Excuse me for being really thick but what exactly is a conrod through the side?

But also if their engine hours are high and/or have serious engine problems then why haven't they been scrapped years ago?

BestWestern · 11 Nov 2014

bigdelboy said:
...and generally degraded to reburbish them with a new prime mover and control system and wiring...

When did it cease to be the done thing to call the big internal combustion device inside a locomotive an 'engine'?!

455driver · 11 Nov 2014

But American locos are best and they can pull anything, thats why some 60s are being rebuilt! :lol:

A sensible company would have kept the 60s which were/are a damn fine loco once they were sorted out.

alexl92 · 12 Nov 2014

Surely with the production of 66s coming to an end and no diesel type 5 suitable for the British loading gauge being produced at present, theres scope for 60s to be refurbed a la 57s?

455driver · 12 Nov 2014

alexl92 said:
Surely with the production of 66s coming to an end and no diesel type 5 suitable for the British loading gauge being produced at present, theres scope for 60s to be refurbed a la 57s?

Why change the engine?
It is a better engine than the one in the 66s!

RichmondCommu · 12 Nov 2014

BestWestern said:
What an appaling waste. Very few of these would have been beyond repair when they were stopped, sadly EWS just had no interest in doing anything constructive with them, dumping perfectly decent rolling stock in order to flood the network with far too many of something else.

Is that far too many for the FOC or far too many for the enthusiast? In all fairness EWS / DBS never withdrew the entire fleet from service.

455driver · 12 Nov 2014

RichmondCommu said:
Is that far too many for the FOC or far too many for the enthusiast? In all fairness EWS / DBS never withdrew the entire fleet from service.

They tried, but soon realised that the 66s were not up to pulling the heavy oil trains even as a pair!

shedman · 12 Nov 2014

The class 60s are no ones concern but the owners and they can do as they please

alexl92 · 12 Nov 2014

455driver said:
Why change the engine?
It is a better engine than the one in the 66s!

I was assuming that those laid up at Toton are beyond economical repair as a result of their standing time but if not, I agree entirely!

bigdelboy · 12 Nov 2014

455driver said:
Why change the engine?
It is a better engine than the one in the 66s!

Sometimes what seems to me to happen is that the number of economically repairable primemovers/engines drop and one may have say 80 usable engines for 100 locomotives. (One may well have started with 102 engines for 100 locomotives). If the original engine is no longer available then a replacement is the only option.

I would by no means disagree with your sentiments as to the quality of the engine. The traction control on the 60's also seems highly regarded; I hope lack of electric/electronic spares do not become as issue as for example class 74.

Daz9284 · 12 Nov 2014

1) DBS own the 60's and lease the 66's. If you were in the position, you would rather use something you lease as it will cost you if you use it or not, whereas the 60 is costing nothing doing nothing.

2) DBS wanted locos that travel faster than 60mph. The 66's do 75mph.

3) they inherited the 60's from BR, and one of the clauses in the agreement is that they can't be scrapped without being offered for sale first.

DarloRich · 12 Nov 2014

tadhatter said:
Excuse me for being really thick but what exactly is a conrod through the side?

it means a crucial part of the engine dug a hole through the engine block and tried to escape from the locomotive. That is quite catastrophic for the engine!

tadhatter said:
But also if their engine hours are high and/or have serious engine problems then why haven't they been scrapped years ago?

Same reason as with all of their wagons rotting away - you dont flood the market for ferrous metals by dumping vast amounts of scrap into the system. It will drive the price down.

TorqueOfTheDevil · 12 Nov 2014

Daz,

Thank you for pointing out three useful facts which I hadn't considered. Could you or anyone else offer a view on this: when Colas took on some 60s earlier this year, was the limiting factor the amount of work which they needed locos for, or the number of locos which were in a fit state to be brought back to life?

Daz9284 · 12 Nov 2014

TorqueOfTheDevil said:
Daz,

Thank you for pointing out three useful facts which I hadn't considered. Could you or anyone else offer a view on this: when Colas took on some 60s earlier this year, was the limiting factor the amount of work which they needed locos for, or the number of locos which were in a fit state to be brought back to life?

The limiting factor was £££. DBS offered 20 for sale, brush bought them and we're going to re-engine them for GBRf, but the sale was cancelled (reasons I can't share). Colas then came forward and bought 10. They only want fiver overhauling 2014/15 financial year and five in the 2015/16 financial year

455driver · 13 Nov 2014

shedman said:
The class 60s are no ones concern but the owners and they can do as they please

But EWS (now DBS) have been taken to task before for not releasing assets they no longer require onto the open market for further use with other operators!

The recent sale of the 60s will have kept the wolves from the door for the time being though.

bigdelboy · 13 Nov 2014

tadhatter said:
I've been curious about this for a while now and having recently popped over to Toton on Sunday afternoon it raised my curiosity further.

There is a tugtracker website that gives details of engine hours and even failure reason. A cursory glance seems to show a lot stopped after an engine defect.

455driver said:
Why change the engine?
It is a better engine than the one in the 66s!

... on investigation i tend to agree no need in this case ... replacement enginees (of same type) seem available and efficient.

.... I know Mirlees have gone but is seems from earlier posts and tugtracker website Brush are able to acquire replacement engines (which they fitting to 60's supplied to Colas). It seems the 'Super 60' upgrade replaces electrical/electronic parts. So the two items that would be necessary to return a '60 to service seem be available ..... at a price of course. I guess depending on how successful and reliable these refurbishments are so more may follow ...

61653 HTAFC · 13 Nov 2014

Cue arguments over the maximum speed of 'super 60s'... :roll:

It always struck me as flawed that EWS had strict limits on engine hours of their 'legacy' fleet. In particular with the 37/4s, it meant that reliable locomotives reached their limit much quicker and were then stopped... Leaving only the 'demics' to fulfil any booked work!

455driver · 13 Nov 2014

61653 HTAFC said:
Cue arguments over the maximum speed of 'super 60s'... :roll:

My mate down the pub told me that a bloke he works with was speaking to a train spotter who has a friend that works for Tescos has a mate whose brother works for Brush who told him that they were tested at 150mph pulling a 10,000 tonne train!

61653 HTAFC said:
It always struck me as flawed that EWS had strict limits on engine hours of their 'legacy' fleet. In particular with the 37/4s, it meant that reliable locomotives reached their limit much quicker and were then stopped... Leaving only the 'demics' to fulfil any booked work!

very true, I think it was more of an excuse to get rid of them rather than any risk management strategy.

Engine hours are not really relevant, engine condition is much more important and that is easily checked with a regular oil analysis.

Ash Bridge · 13 Nov 2014

455driver said:
My mate down the pub told me that a bloke he works with was speaking to a train spotter who has a friend that works for Tescos has a mate whose brother works for Brush who told him that they were tested at 150mph pulling a 10,000 tonne train!

very true, I think it was more of an excuse to get rid of them rather than any risk management strategy.

I think that Ed Burkhart (or whatever his name was) hated anything British, or European for that matter!

physics34 · 13 Nov 2014

remember them when they were new. Never ever thought most of them would be lying idle after 20 odd years...

..also never thought would look dated, but that boxy look does!

Ash Bridge · 13 Nov 2014

bigdelboy said:
There is a tugtracker website that gives details of engine hours and even failure reason. A cursory glance seems to show a lot stopped after an engine defect.

... on investigation i tend to agree no need in this case ... replacement enginees (of same type) seem available and efficient.

.... I know Mirlees have gone but is seems from earlier posts and tugtracker website Brush are able to acquire replacement engines (which they fitting to 60's supplied to Colas). It seems the 'Super 60' upgrade replaces electrical/electronic parts. So the two items that would be necessary to return a '60 to service seem be available ..... at a price of course. I guess depending on how successful and reliable these refurbishments are so more may follow ...

As you say Mirrlees are sadly no more, but MAN B&W Diesel & Turbo UK. have set up a facility in part of the former (now mostly demolished) Mirrlees Blackstone factory in Stockport, offering full support for former products of MB. One of those products listed amongst traction & marine engines is the MB275, which I think is it not the Class 60 power unit? Seemingly parts availability regarding the engines dosen't seem to be a problem. Just to add they have also took over responsibility for Ruston & Paxman engines after service too.

SpacePhoenix · 13 Nov 2014

How far are the 60s (in general) into their expected life span?

class 60s stored at Toton

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