Germanwings 4U-9525 Crash

trentside · 24 Mar 2015

Reports coming in that Germanwings 4U-9525 has crashed south of Marseille.

Aircraft was an Airbus A320-200, registered D-AIPX.

An Airbus A320 airliner has crashed in the French Alps between Barcelonnette and Digne, French aviation officials and police have said.

The jet belongs to the German low-cost airline Germanwings, a subsidiary of Lufthansa.

The plane was reported to be carrying 142 passengers and six crew members.
Both Airbus and Germanwings have said they aware of the reports but cannot yet confirm them.

Source: BBC News

A Germanwings Airbus A320-200, registration D-AIPX performing flight 4U-9525 from Barcelona,SP (Spain) to Dusseldorf (Germany), was enroute at FL380 about 30nm southeast of Marseille (France) when the aircraft initiated a rapid descent. Radar contact with the aircraft was lost at about 6000 feet at approx. 10:45L (09:45Z).

French Police reported two helicopter spotted the remains of the aircraft on the ground near Barcelonnette (France).

Radar data suggest the aircraft had reached FL380 about 3 minutes prior to leaving FL380 and descended from FL380 through FL110 in 8 minutes (average rate of descent 3375 fpm).

Source: Aviation Herald.

RailUK Forums

MidnightFlyer · 24 Mar 2015

No survivors anticipated, according to Hollande. What a horrible event

Bletchleyite · 24 Mar 2015

Is that the first fatality on a European low cost airline, albeit one owned by Lufthansa?

Hornet · 24 Mar 2015

Neil Williams said:
Is that the first fatality on a European low cost airline, albeit one owned by Lufthansa?

No. Manx2 at Cork comes to mind. Apparently the first fatal passenger carrying flight in France since Concorde went down.

MarkyT · 24 Mar 2015

Flighradar24 final trace for this aircraft and flight is here:

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/d-aipx/#5d42675

Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe) discussion is here:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france.html

One thing is for sure whatever the cause. The terrain around there is horribly unforgiving. Once the descent started there were few options for mitigation assuming the crew retained any control at all.

RIP to the victims and deepest sympathies to all affected by this tragedy.

WestCoast · 24 Mar 2015

Awful news, my thoughts with all those affected. The circumstances on this one are really quite exceptional.

I've flown on Germanwings and on Lufthansa quite a number of times before - it really is an extremely reputable and experienced airline group with an impeccable safety record (660+ aircraft currently operated worldwide without a fatal incident on a commercial flight since 1993). Makes this incident all the more notable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Neil Williams said:
Is that the first fatality on a European low cost airline, albeit one owned by Lufthansa?

Helios Airways, the Cypriot carrier which was involved in the 2005 crash in Greece due to an incorrectly set pressurisation system and subsequent procedure, designated itself as a low-cost airline. It rebranded as Ajet, but went bankrupt a couple of years later.

Tim R-T-C · 24 Mar 2015

WestCoast said:
Helios Airways, the Cypriot carrier which was involved in the 2005 crash in Greece due to an incorrectly set pressurisation system and subsequent procedure, designated itself as a low-cost airline. It rebranded as Ajet, but went bankrupt a couple of years later.

It certainly seems from what we have been told thus far that a pressurisation issue might be the cause here too - would explain why the plane made no contact - perhaps it wasn't under autopilot when pressure was lost.

Xenophon PCDGS · 24 Mar 2015

There appears to have been a number of students from a small area school on board who had been on an exchange visit to Spain

Antman · 25 Mar 2015

Paul Sidorczuk said:
There appears to have been a number of students from a small area school on board who had been on an exchange visit to Spain

The loss of children compounds the tragedy.

The pressurisation theory seems to be the most likely reason.

My thoughts go out to everyone who has been effected.

radamfi · 25 Mar 2015

Antman said:
The loss of children compounds the tragedy.

Does it? When you turn 18, do you become less important as a human being?

Whilst any violent death is horrible, deaths whilst travelling occur daily on the roads with zero or minimal publicity. On the other hand, dying in a plane crash may be a quick and relatively painless way to go compared to a long, drawn out illness.

Antman · 25 Mar 2015

radamfi said:
Does it? When you turn 18, do you become less important as a human being?

Whilst any violent death is horrible, deaths whilst travelling occur daily on the roads with zero or minimal publicity. On the other hand, dying in a plane crash may be a quick and relatively painless way to go compared to a long, drawn out illness.

I think the loss of a child will always be seen as a lot worse whatever the circumstances.

As you say people die in road traffic accidents daily but one inccident claiming a large number of lives will always get more publicity. I guess we just accept such risks as part and parcel of daily life?

Tim R-T-C · 26 Mar 2015

Confirming that the crash appears to have been deliberate:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587

The co-pilot of the Germanwings flight that crashed in the French Alps, named as Andreas Lubitz, appeared to want to "destroy the plane", officials said.
Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin, citing information from the "black box" voice recorder, said the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit.
He intentionally started a descent while the pilot was locked out.
Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.
He said air traffic controllers made repeated attempts to contact the aircraft, but to no avail. Passengers could be heard screaming just before the crash, he added.

The safety feature to stop terrorists getting on to the cockpit has meant no one could stop the copilot crashing the plan. Looks like we might now have to rethink these arrangements again, particularly as the Malaysia airlines crash might have had the same cause (it is certainly one of the more plausible arguments for that crash and now of course will seem even more likely).

Bletchleyite · 26 Mar 2015

Who can you trust if you can't trust the pilot?

I'd figure there is not really a solution here...

ainsworth74 · 26 Mar 2015

Neil Williams said:
I'd figure there is not really a solution here...

Only thing I can come up with is that you'll have to implement a variant of a two-man rule system for the cockpit meaning that no one can be alone in the cockpit whilst in flight (and possibly whilst on the ground as well).

CC 72100 · 26 Mar 2015

This idea of an action implemented by one of the crew while the other member was outside the cockpit sounds chillingly similar to Egypt Air 990.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

I see the BBC article talks about Egypt Air, hadn't actually read it to make sure that I wasn't making a point that had already been made... oops

Bletchleyite · 26 Mar 2015

ainsworth74 said:
Only thing I can come up with is that you'll have to implement a variant of a two-man rule system for the cockpit meaning that no one can be alone in the cockpit whilst in flight (and possibly whilst on the ground as well).

Supposedly some airlines have that rule already, but others don't (I guess Lufthansa doesn't). But there is still the possibility there of one overpowering the other.

Antman · 26 Mar 2015

Neil Williams said:
Supposedly some airlines have that rule already, but others don't (I guess Lufthansa doesn't). But there is still the possibility there of one overpowering the other.

The possibilities of what could happen are endless and it is difficult to understand the mindset of somebody who would want to do something like this. Obviously screening of pilots can only do so much and I'm not sure how any system can be foolproof?

EM2 · 26 Mar 2015

Tim R-T-C said:
The safety feature to stop terrorists getting on to the cockpit has meant no one could stop the copilot crashing the plan. Looks like we might now have to rethink these arrangements again, particularly as the Malaysia airlines crash might have had the same cause (it is certainly one of the more plausible arguments for that crash and now of course will seem even more likely).

Is it possible that the co-pilot had some kind of seizure, or passed out, fell sideways onto the console and knocked both the door override and the descent control?
I have no idea of the control layout, whether these controls are even remotely close to each other, or even if they are protected by a cover or similar, but could it be accidental?

jon0844 · 26 Mar 2015

From what I saw on the BBC, the locking switch is protected - but there could still be another explanation besides a deliberate attempt to kill everyone onboard.

Mike395 · 26 Mar 2015

The video towards the bottom of this article shows how the door locking system works on the Airbus A320 - I find it difficult to see how the door override and the decent control could be knocked together, unfortunately

ilkestonian · 26 Mar 2015

EM2 said:
Is it possible that the co-pilot had some kind of seizure, or passed out, fell sideways onto the console and knocked both the door override and the descent control?
I have no idea of the control layout, whether these controls are even remotely close to each other, or even if they are protected by a cover or similar, but could it be accidental?

Apparently, the door can be opened from outside unless the person on the flight deck deliberately leaves his (or her) seat and physically moves a lock.

In other words, an incapacitated solo occupant can be reached; one who chooses not to be reached is currently unreachable.

And the auto pilot was apparently not disengaged, it's settings were changed by rotating a control which selects the target altitude, it's not a question of collapsing forward onto a control yolk.

Tim R-T-C · 26 Mar 2015

EM2 said:
Is it possible that the co-pilot had some kind of seizure, or passed out, fell sideways onto the console and knocked both the door override and the descent control?
I have no idea of the control layout, whether these controls are even remotely close to each other, or even if they are protected by a cover or similar, but could it be accidental?

The recordings suggest that he was moving and breathing normally until impact. The change to descent was a manual one and could not have been accidental. The cockpit doors have an override in the event of a crew member being incapacitated but they can be overridden themselves by the person on the flight deck.

The fact they have released this information suggests they must be very certain of it - they would not want to slander an innocent victim.

MarkyT · 26 Mar 2015

There may be a problem in the way these high-security cockpit doors work. These strong bulletproof barriers with multiple electric bolts all round were installed on airliners after 9/11, and are designed to keep a threatening person in the passenger cabin from entering. But what if the threat is already inside, either alone as it seems in this case or having overpowered a co-pilot? The video linked below illustrates the procedures involved and shows there's an emergency code release procedure available from the cabin side, but I suspect that, as it is designed to deal with crew incapacitation, it too may be overridden by the forced lock control toggle operated inside the cockpit. Operating such a switch from inside would 'prove' there was, in fact no incapacitation, so master control (if you like) would remain in the cockpit. Does anyone know if that is the case?

https://youtu.be/ixEHV7c3VXs

Antman · 26 Mar 2015

Easyjet have announced that from tomorrow they will have at least two crew members in the cockpit at all times and other airlines are likely to follow suit.

brianthegiant · 26 Mar 2015

Tim R-T-C said:
The fact they have released this information suggests they must be very certain of it - they would not want to slander an innocent victim.

I'm not convinced, remember there is a different mindset in countries using the inquisitorial justice system (Knox trial being the extreme example). They seem to have jumped to conclusions very quickly based on only 1 of the black boxes in absence of any other evidence to confirm/contradict the theory. It is absolutely wrong and unfair to the family of the co-pilot to put this story about before a detailed investigation. It smells of scapegoating and reminds of the Spanish HS train crash. A responsible investigator would resist the media frenzy & keep it vague until more facts are known.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

MarkyT said:
Operating such a switch from inside would 'prove' there was, in fact no incapacitation, so master control (if you like) would remain in the cockpit. Does anyone know if that is the case?

3 siwtch positions:
unlocked
normal (locked but releasable from cabin keypad)
Locked ( cannot be released from keypad, timesout after 5 minutes, but presumably could be reactivated every 5 minutes.

This does imply intent yes .. But until we have more evidence we cannot be sure there wasn't some single or multiple failure mode which gave rise to the symptoms.

Hornet · 26 Mar 2015

Antman said:
Easyjet have announced that from tomorrow they will have at least two crew members in the cockpit at all times and other airlines are likely to follow suit.

Ryanair and Hairy Fungus have done this for many years on the flights I have been on, (since 9/11), when either PF or PNF has left the cockpit. Normally, but not exclusively the senior CCM goes into the cockpit during this period.

edwin_m · 27 Mar 2015

MarkyT said:
There may be a problem in the way these high-security cockpit doors work. These strong bulletproof barriers with multiple electric bolts all round were installed on airliners after 9/11, and are designed to keep a threatening person in the passenger cabin from entering. But what if the threat is already inside, either alone as it seems in this case or having overpowered a co-pilot? The video linked below illustrates the procedures involved and shows there's an emergency code release procedure available from the cabin side, but I suspect that, as it is designed to deal with crew incapacitation, it too may be overridden by the forced lock control toggle operated inside the cockpit. Operating such a switch from inside would 'prove' there was, in fact no incapacitation, so master control (if you like) would remain in the cockpit. Does anyone know if that is the case?

https://youtu.be/ixEHV7c3VXs

Seems to be correct according to the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32062996
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-32070528

Bletchleyite · 27 Mar 2015

Hornet said:
Ryanair and Hairy Fungus have done this for many years on the flights I have been on, (since 9/11), when either PF or PNF has left the cockpit. Normally, but not exclusively the senior CCM goes into the cockpit during this period.

On easyJet the cabin crew member presently stands blocking the cockpit door, so in practice this will make little difference - they will just enter the cockpit instead of standing by it, I guess.

Johnuk123 · 27 Mar 2015

Neil Williams said:
On easyJet the cabin crew member presently stands blocking the cockpit door, so in practice this will make little difference - they will just enter the cockpit instead of standing by it, I guess.

My wife uses easyJet 10 - 15 times a month and she tells me this maybe a rule but it's not always kept to.

edwin_m · 27 Mar 2015

Neil Williams said:
On easyJet the cabin crew member presently stands blocking the cockpit door, so in practice this will make little difference - they will just enter the cockpit instead of standing by it, I guess.

This may be to stop someone forcing their way into the cockpit when the door is opened for the returning pilot. In which case a second crew member might be needed, one to go into the cockpit and the other to guard the door.

Will some airlines move the door back so the front toilet becomes staff only?

Germanwings 4U-9525 Crash

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