class 317 thameslink history

387star · 17 Dec 2016

I see that the original Bedford to London suburban trains were 317s and the first DOO services in the country.

Presumably Thameslink wasn't given the green light at this point as the 319s were ordered a few years later crucially being dual voltage

It seems 317s made a come back for extra tl moorgate services but just for a fortnight?

and then again during the thameslink blockade

Is there a place to go to find archival footage of the 317s on thameslink services?

Also interesting to see they had a brief stint out of Euston which I never knew again to be replaced by 321s

The 365s are also mentioned as I think these replaced casccadec 317s on the gn

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zn1 · 17 Dec 2016

317/1 were cascaded over to bletchley in 1987/88 to allow 310/0 to replace unrefurbed 302's on the LT&S.

they were repainted at wolverton and the 1st class was reinstated, albeit in the middle of the units

the 317s lasted about 2 years at Bletchley where the 321/4s entered squadron service..legend has it the 321/4s were to have a 442 front end, but our lord and master chris green who used berko vetoed the idea...hence the 5 degree'ed front end.

personally i preferred 317. they had air con, were very quick and always felt were better than 321.

317/2 were built in 1986/87. memory serves their numbers were 317350 - 369. and were back end of the 318 build...

Failed Unit · 17 Dec 2016

The 317/1 did indeed begin life on Bedford - Moorgate / st Pancras.

The 317/2 on Kings Cross - Royston / Huntingdon.

A few things happened in the mid 1980s. Thameslink of course one of them. This sent the 317/1 towards London - Birmingham and to kings cross as electrification hit Cambridge and Peterborough.

Original thameslink of course went to Brighton, but also covered Guildford via west Croydon and Sevenoaks via bat and ball. Various route changes removed Guildford of the network and basically gave is the loop we have now. I am sure Sutton was also covered but not in a loop.

The 317/1s had ended up on Fenchurch St runs ended up returning at the turn of the millennium on peak Bedford - Moorgate runs. In a green stripe livery.

I am sure others will fill in gaps. The majority of the 317s were now on WAGN, with Liverpool Street getting some because of DOO monitor positions with the 321s.

317666 · 17 Dec 2016

I believe it was 317301-7 which were in the green stripe livery, as they were operated by LTS. After returning to WAGN they held onto the livery for quite some time before eventually being repainted, along with the other unrefurbished /1s which were still in NSE! Even under FCC the 317s did run Bedford - Moorgate at some stage, I remember seeing one at St Pancras Low Level, still in WAGN purple.

The 317/2s (349-372 upon delivery) were refurbished by WAGN to bring the interior up to the same standards as the (then only a few years old) 365s, 300 was added to the unit numbers and they were reclassified as /6s. I'm not sure whether there were any specific duties in mind for them, having lived in Cambridge for twenty years I always found that any 317 (bar the dedicated Stansted units) could turn up on any given train, until WAGN was split up and all 317s bar 337-348 became solely West Anglia units.

physics34 · 17 Dec 2016

zn1 said:
personally i preferred 317. they had air con, were very quick and always felt were better than 321.

Being a bit picky but wasnt it just pressure ventilation??! Basically just air pumped in and filtered from outside.

Failed Unit · 17 Dec 2016

physics34 said:
Being a bit picky but wasnt it just pressure ventilation??! Basically just air pumped in and filtered from outside.

It was. I was surprised about the air conditioning comment as only the stansted express conversations had it (rarely worked on the units i used)

Always preferred the 317/2 for the larger windows.

Supercoss · 17 Dec 2016

Don't forget the initial Bed-Pan 48 units 317s sat idle for nearly 18 months following construction, whilst the unions battled over DOO working between Bedford & Moorgate, during which one driving coach of 317 301 was destroyed in a shunting mishap at Cricklewood http://railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=0609020923000 after a class 45 loco was driven into it and handpoints incorrectly set/driver not in leading cab.
Unbelievably today 317s are no longer gauge cleared for the route between Kentish Town and Farringdon so cn only operate Bedford to St Pncras High Level if they returned.
http://bed-pan.homestead.com/scan0001.jpg
http://bed-pan.homestead.com/317.jpg

Failed Unit · 17 Dec 2016

That's interesting. I always thought they were essentially the same as the 319s. Saying that you wouldn't really want ac only units down there now anyway.

387star · 17 Dec 2016

why did the thameslink blockade result in additional 317s being required? and why were 317s only used for a fortnight on the moorgates in around 2002?

Were 317s not deemed acceptable for the euston services hence 321s being ordered?

Off topic but regarding the 365s it seems they were split between gn and south eastern when built and then the southeastern units joined the gn units in 2004?

Was the great northern brand used by nse? always wondered why it is called great northern as hardly northern!

found this vid st pancras 1986 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fD62oqne0M

D365 · 17 Dec 2016

387star said:
why did the thameslink blockade result in additional 317s being required?

I assume that they were required to fill in for 319s that were required south of the Thames - longer turn-around and stock movement times.

Off topic but regarding the 365s it seems they were split between gn and south eastern when built and then the southeastern units joined the gn units in 2004?

That sounds about right, 21 to GN and 16 to SE originally.

Was the great northern brand used by nse? always wondered why it is called great northern as hardly northern!

Think so, it was the historical name for the suburban services. 'Northern' lines have a tendency to not be entirely geographically accurate.

Failed Unit · 17 Dec 2016

Combination of things bought the 317s back. Not getting tyres turned on the 319s I think was the straw that broke the camels back iirc.

jopsuk · 17 Dec 2016

387star said:
Was the great northern brand used by nse? always wondered why it is called great northern as hardly northern![/url]

I think the "Great Northern Electrics" sign on Finsbury Park pre-dated NSE. The line from Kings Cross to York Was built by the Great Northern Railway

urpert · 18 Dec 2016

387star said:
Off topic but regarding the 365s it seems they were split between gn and south eastern when built and then the southeastern units joined the gn units in 2004?

Was the great northern brand used by nse? always wondered why it is called great northern as hardly northern!

found this vid st pancras 1986 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fD62oqne0M

Good explanation of the 365's early history here:
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class365_01.html

bramling · 18 Dec 2016

387star said:
Was the great northern brand used by nse? always wondered why it is called great northern as hardly northern!

Yes, NSE used "Great Northern".

In NSE days some of the 317s were branded "Great Northern", others were branded "West Anglia" - although it wasn't uncommon to see one or the other on the other route.

Upon privatisation, the whole 317 fleet went to WAGN, with the Network South East branding replaced with the original WAGN logo. When the initial 25x 365s arrived, a sub-set of 17x (?) 317/1s then went to LTS Rail to replace the class 302s.

This is how things remained for the late 1990s / early 2000s. The LTS 317/1s then came back in dribs and drabs whilst around the same time 317s started being hired to Thameslink.

As I remember it, the next thing to happen was the WAGN/'one' split, which saw all the 317/2s allocated to 'one', along with many of the 317/1s. However most of the LTS 317s remained with WAGN, being replaced by the 16x 365s transferred from South Eastern. As I remember things, these 317s were then used to provide extra stock for the Thameslink blockade, and then found their way onto West Anglia.

BelleIsle · 19 Dec 2016

Supercoss said:
Don't forget the initial Bed-Pan 48 units 317s sat idle for nearly 18 months following construction, whilst the unions battled over DOO working between Bedford & Moorgate.

Throw in the problems with 'the wrong kind of snow' and it was a fun time. At one point there were even borrowed units with 312s on the semis and 315s on the stoppers

BelleIsle · 19 Dec 2016

387star said:
Presumably Thameslink wasn't given the green light at this point as the 319s were ordered a few years later crucially being dual voltage.

At one point in the planning there was going to be set up similar to the GN. A mix of dual voltage PEP units for the stoppers, i.e. the 'missing' 316, and 317s for the semis. Then someone realised that the differences between the sevices were not as great as on the GN. On the Midland stations are further apart hence slower but faster accelerating units were not an advantage. The Widened Lines were 8 car unlike the GN&C which was 6 car meaning you did not need different unit lengths. As soon as 2nd class was abolished it made sense to go with a cheaper single unit strategy. At that point there was the possibility of dual voltage 317s but it was felt that getting OHLE down to Moorgate might be a possibility. Between slab track and improvements in insulation they made it happen.

The irony of this is that Thameslink happened only a few years later. The plans were well known but not many people ever believed it would happen. It was not the promise of greater journey opportunities nor the GLC vision of linking unemployed areas of South London to areas with a labour shortage in the North that won the day. What sold the deal was the need to get rid of the dangerous 415s (Cannon Street crash, railway rapist etc.), operational savings, development opportunities at Cricklewood and Holborn Viaduct plus a beachhead of DOO south if the river. In the post-privatisation world that corresponds to the Southern franchise...

urpert · 19 Dec 2016

Fascinating and little known history, thanks.

Tynwald · 19 Dec 2016

Ah yes. Remember working nights at Cricklewood, repairing class 317 chokes. Also fitting snow guards. Units were limited to 30mph at this time. They were refered to as Bedpan units in those days.

Wivenswold · 19 Dec 2016

I left LTS weeks before the 317s turned up. We'd endured months of preparation work on platform edges. Having been promised Networkers in the early nineties, there wasn't much excitement about them starting.

The 317s have played a role on nearly every AC line in the NSE area. They've even had 4 spells on the GEML. Throughout the second half of the nineties and possibly beyond, a weekend Harwich International - Liverpool Street diagram often had a single 317/2 on it. Borrowed, I assume, from WAGN.

Then there was the plan to replace the Class 322s with some 317/1 (as I still think of them). The 322s replaced the last of 312s in 2004 but didn't last long themselves. I remember seeing a 12 car 317 on an Ipswich service in 2005 but they too disappeared and I've never found out why.

At the end of the Nat Express franchise 317/7s popped up on one service peak service on the GEML and at present there's a single peak train in either direction that uses a 2 unit consist (I think).

I'm not aware that they've been in service on my local Clacton branch, though I've seen them run past as ECS, or the Southend Vic Line. But I could be wrong.

Failed Unit · 19 Dec 2016

Thinking about it they probably have done the most diverse set of routes of any ac unit. Don't think the 321s have ever done Bedford or Fenchurch St.

I was looking for a photo of them at Newcastle following a working from London kings cross. (Substituting a mk4 set after Sandy derailment.)

D365 · 19 Dec 2016

Failed Unit said:
Don't think the 321s have ever done Bedford or Fenchurch St.

Pretty sure that they covered for unavailable Class 357s on a few occasions in the noughties.

CheeseOnToast · 20 Dec 2016

The 317s were certainly on Thameslink Moorgate services during my MML commuting days of 2000 - 2006 though I think post core blockade (when they constructed the concrete box for what is now St Pancras Low Level) they went having been replaced by the 319/0 and 319/2 units I think. The 319/2 units were always popular as they contained the old buffet area with lounge style seating, that layout lingered on for longer than I expected, that's another subject.

The doors were awful in the cold, wet and winter, worse than the 319s. I recall at Leagrave the driver coming on the PA "Can someone in the back car kick the last door shut please? Ta.", then at Luton "Can someone in the back car kick the back door", Harpenden "Can someone in the... thanks" and by St Albans the door was kicked shut without being asked followed by a "Thanks" over the PA".

All were NSE livered but with the green stripe, destination blinds were always empty and blank. I probably have a few photos. No idea how they got to Bedford, guess they were dragged via somewhere, Going back to that time you could've had a phot of a 319, 317, HST and 170 at Bedford Midland, how times change!

Alfie1014 · 20 Dec 2016

Wivenswold said:
I left LTS weeks before the 317s turned up. We'd endured months of preparation work on platform edges. Having been promised Networkers in the early nineties, there wasn't much excitement about them starting.

The 317s have played a role on nearly every AC line in the NSE area. They've even had 4 spells on the GEML. Throughout the second half of the nineties and possibly beyond, a weekend Harwich International - Liverpool Street diagram often had a single 317/2 on it. Borrowed, I assume, from WAGN.

Then there was the plan to replace the Class 322s with some 317/1 (as I still think of them). The 322s replaced the last of 312s in 2004 but didn't last long themselves. I remember seeing a 12 car 317 on an Ipswich service in 2005 but they too disappeared and I've never found out why.

At the end of the Nat Express franchise 317/7s popped up on one service peak service on the GEML and at present there's a single peak train in either direction that uses a 2 unit consist (I think).

I'm not aware that they've been in service on my local Clacton branch, though I've seen them run past as ECS, or the Southend Vic Line. But I could be wrong.

They briefly work to Norwich and back on the 17:02 from LST at the end of NXEA days and now work the 16:17 LST - Witham and 18:17 LST - Ipswich in the evening and these plus a morning working are worked by Ilford crews who I think is the only GE depot who now know 317s. They also work them to/from Clacton EMUD for refreshment works, see pic of 317506 passing Wivenhoe this summer.

[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/8673209@N04/27563795742/in/dateposted-public*********[/url]

Re the 321s; a pair of (former) Silverlink units worked on the LTS in around 2009/10? for about a year or so when the 357s were undergoing corrosion rectification works. I dont think that they have regularily worked on the route at any other time? Liklewise I'm not aware of any working on the MML to Bedford, other than possibly to something like Bedford depot open day?

BelleIsle · 20 Dec 2016

Failed Unit said:
Thinking about it they probably have done the most diverse set of routes of any ac unit. Don't think the 321s have ever done Bedford or Fenchurch St.

I know 321s for Thameslink were looked at during the period when Southern were borrowing some 319s. The problem is that without end doors you are barred from the single bore tunnels east of Farringdon.

BelleIsle · 20 Dec 2016

urpert said:
Fascinating and little known history, thanks.

When they decided to go with a single fleet they worked out that due to greater redundancy they could get away with 46 units viz 48. However, BREL held them to the original order. They also refused to take out the first class area so it was just permanantly declassified. Passengers in the know would always go for the 'composite'. 2+2 seats, better seats, much better legroom, a cushion for your head and so on. Althought the latter were loosely kept in place by a strap and some velcro so had the habit of coming separated. The carpets and interior door really made a difference to sound proofing and keeping the drafts out. What always stuck out for me was the awful beige cum tartan moquette. A true relic of its 70s design heritage.

Hadders · 20 Dec 2016

urpert said:
Good explanation of the 365's early history here:
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class365_01.html

Compare and contrast the interior photos on page 2 of the article to the refreshed 365s we currently have or the 700s....

bramling · 20 Dec 2016

Hadders said:
Compare and contrast the interior photos on page 2 of the article to the refreshed 365s we currently have or the 700s....

I've still got one of the leaflets given out by WAGN at the time the 365s were introduced.

Two decades later, how things have gone downhill.

urpert · 20 Dec 2016

Agreed, those pics made me quite nostalgic for the original interiors.

Wivenswold · 20 Dec 2016

Alfie1014 said:
They briefly work to Norwich and back on the 17:02 from LST at the end of NXEA days and now work the 16:17 LST - Witham and 18:17 LST - Ipswich in the evening and these plus a morning working are worked by Ilford crews who I think is the only GE depot who now know 317s. They also work them to/from Clacton EMUD for refreshment works, see pic of 317506 passing Wivenhoe this summer.

[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/8673209@N04/27563795742/in/dateposted-public*********[/url]

Re the 321s; a pair of (former) Silverlink units worked on the LTS in around 2009/10? for about a year or so when the 357s were undergoing corrosion rectification works. I dont think that they have regularily worked on the route at any other time? Liklewise I'm not aware of any working on the MML to Bedford, other than possibly to something like Bedford depot open day?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info.

Reading there that GN only had 25 Class 365s, so did all of the 317/2 transfer to WA duties when they arrived? GN really didn't have many units back then did they?

Failed Unit · 21 Dec 2016

The 317/2 were in a common pool until the franchise became greater anglia. As national express retained / won greater anglia the kept the nicer 317s.

class 317 thameslink history

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