Kendalian
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Said it before, but given the scale of the work still to do and testing/training, just announce it now as May 18 straight through Manchester-Blackpool.
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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification
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Said it before, but given the scale of the work still to do and testing/training, just announce it now as May 18 straight through Manchester-Blackpool.
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absolutelymilk
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Yes, but none of this is inconsistent with services starting in February (say), and taking til March to start cascading
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Yep - I have been saying that for about 9 months now.
absolutelymilk
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Today I took a trip from Preston to Manchester and sat on the left hand side. A mixed bag - as others have said, there were no signs of bases at stations and a huge gap between Farnworth and Agecroft Road bridge, whether there were only a quarter to a third of the bases in place and no masts. However, the rest of the run was good, seemed to be masts in place for maybe 2/3 of it and bases for another sixth.
I'll try and take some photos next time, but we didn't stop apart from stations and so couldn't take photos (just had my phone).
I'll try and take some photos next time, but we didn't stop apart from stations and so couldn't take photos (just had my phone).
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The catch with bases is that where there are twin-track cantilevers (TTCs), usually on curves, you clearly only need a base on one side.
Examples are the first mile from Euxton Jn where virtually all the masts are TTCs on the inside of the curve, also many of those to the north of Horwich.
The Kearsley-Agecroft section is pretty straight though, and you would normally expect single cantilevers on each side.
But I suspect the bad ground conditions are on the north/east side with the steep (downhill) embankment.
So I wouldn't be surprised if most of the route was piled with TTC bases on the opposite (uphill) side, where the ground is better.
Time will tell.
The problems covered in the NR video ("running sand" etc) seem similar to those encountered with the Farnworth Tunnel TBM last year.
Year before, alas!
(Re Blackpool North)
https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGNRP/status/921108607491629056
However, four platforms have been demolished: two permanently and two so they can be rebuilt longer:
https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGNRP/status/921108607491629056
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Changes to this timetable have been made in response to the delayed construction works for Phase 4 Electrification (Manchester to Preston). Work continues to ensure that the work is completed as soon as possible but we have been advised that the delivery date is now after December 2017.
16.4 A number of the planned improvements will still be possible, largely those not requiring additional rolling stock. A small number of units is freed up by the closure of Blackpool to Preston for electrification works, with these units operating the Bishop Auckland to Darlington line on an hourly basis.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
And I assume not just longer but also slightly straighter and less bendier/curvier ?
TBSchenker
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I’m dismayed by what I saw yesterday at the site of the neutral section at Euxton Jn on the Bolton lines.
The sign identifying the location of the neutral section is incorrect. They have put up the advance warning sign (black background and white sign) instead of the site (white background and black sign).
Doesn’t fill me with confidence that the project will complete seamlessly without issues, if something as simple as a sign can be put up incorrectly.
Another example of incompetent project management.
The sign identifying the location of the neutral section is incorrect. They have put up the advance warning sign (black background and white sign) instead of the site (white background and black sign).
Doesn’t fill me with confidence that the project will complete seamlessly without issues, if something as simple as a sign can be put up incorrectly.
Another example of incompetent project management.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Could be just as simple as someone going out with two signs and mis-reading the instructions about which one goes where. It would almost certainly be noted before the line went live and can be fixed in a couple of hours. Doesn't really compare with, for example, having to raise all the bridge parapets higher than expected.
TBSchenker
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There’s a lot of issues which aren’t being handled very well.
The foot crossing at Adlington that has been closed for months, with whistle boards still active and a 60mph TSR due to “condition of crossing”. The crossing that has been lifted and fenced off.
Network Rail say the project manager won’t do anything about this until the footbridge is opened. The footbridge that has been in situ for a few months, apparently a paperwork issue between NR and Lancashire County Council.
The foot crossing at Adlington that has been closed for months, with whistle boards still active and a 60mph TSR due to “condition of crossing”. The crossing that has been lifted and fenced off.
Network Rail say the project manager won’t do anything about this until the footbridge is opened. The footbridge that has been in situ for a few months, apparently a paperwork issue between NR and Lancashire County Council.
themiller
Member
This is why there's so much checking to do before handing it on to 'Operations'. It's probably a lapse in Supervision and may well have been corrected before handover from 'Construction' to 'Commissioning'. I use the terms Operations, Construction and Commissioning as that's what those groups are called in the nuclear industry.
Ploughman
Established Member
From the BBC News pages today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-41706213
Old mines have been blamed for further delays to electrification works between Manchester and Preston.
Construction on the link first began in 2015 and was due to be finished by the end of 2016. This was later put back to the end of December 2017.
But "poor ground conditions... from old, known and unknown, underground mine workings" were delaying progress, Network Rail said.
The electrification is due to be complete in 2018, a spokeswoman added.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-41706213
Old mines have been blamed for further delays to electrification works between Manchester and Preston.
Construction on the link first began in 2015 and was due to be finished by the end of 2016. This was later put back to the end of December 2017.
But "poor ground conditions... from old, known and unknown, underground mine workings" were delaying progress, Network Rail said.
The electrification is due to be complete in 2018, a spokeswoman added.
LDECRexile
Established Member
I did a Salford Crescent to Blackpool North out and back run today. I had a clear view rightwards from all trains.
I'll begin with progress over the last week:
1. I think there are some new bases in the ground between Cock Robin bridge and Agecroft Road bridge.
2. Base formwork has been erected on the west side of the Anderton Hall bridge-to-be, but not yet on the east side. No concrete has been poured.
3. The new Heath Charnock footbridge looks finished, but not opened.
4. Possibly a new mast immediately south of Lever St footbridge.
5. One new shelter at Adlington erected but no opened, the other demolished.
6. Housebuilding at Buckshaw continues
7. Some progress on resurfacing Bolton Platform 4.
8. Some progress on the base off the end of Bolton Platform 2.
a. More masts and bases between Preston and Blackpool. Only a handful of scrapes visible outside the two "workzone" stations - Kirkham & W and Blackpool N
b. Work taking place on Blackpool North's being-replaced-and-extended most westerly platforms (1 & 2?)
c. Scrapes on Tulketh Viaduct, their layout suggests the "slab" style as used around Salford Central to distribute load.
I take no pleasure in learning that NR have "come clean" that the project is delayed. When I was in work I always told my staff that if they really, really wanted to get wrong side of me they would pretend all was well then drop me in it at deadline time. Every reasonable person knows problems occur and people of goodwill can get behind you when facing difficulties, but keeping schtum then dropping everyone in it alienates everyone. Isn't life hard enough without creating rods for your own back?
That's a general point, but I would like to share my disappointment and bewilderment over what seems like two own goals, scored by the same people who had scored a fine goal earlier.
In 2015 Kearsley foot crossing was replaced with a footbridge. This was publicised and delivered as promised. So far, good practice, well done. The best bit was that the foot crossing remained open throughout, only closing as the bridge opened. I attach a selection of photos from the Combined Volume which I took at the time.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157687598685110
Comment: "That's the way to do it!"
Contrast this with Bradshaw Fields foot crossing/bridge where the crossing was closed for ages with no action, then not opened for weeks after completion. Looking at the new bridge it seems no closer to the old crossing than at Kearsley, but I'm open to correction on that. It is possible that the western access could not have been safely left open during building. I can imagine that failure to promptly reopen was down to a third party signing the bridge off, but I look forward to learning how closing the crossing then doing nowt for ages can be justified.
The Anderton Hall foot crossing replacement appears to be Bradshaw Fields2, except it isn't finished yet so it may reopen promptly. However, looking at where it is being built, ie several yards south of the foot crossing I can't see why the foot crossing was or is closed at all.
Ain't life hard enough without losing friends and uninfluencing people?
Photos from Bolton, Blackpool and Kirkham & Wesham later.
I'll begin with progress over the last week:
1. I think there are some new bases in the ground between Cock Robin bridge and Agecroft Road bridge.
2. Base formwork has been erected on the west side of the Anderton Hall bridge-to-be, but not yet on the east side. No concrete has been poured.
3. The new Heath Charnock footbridge looks finished, but not opened.
4. Possibly a new mast immediately south of Lever St footbridge.
5. One new shelter at Adlington erected but no opened, the other demolished.
6. Housebuilding at Buckshaw continues
7. Some progress on resurfacing Bolton Platform 4.
8. Some progress on the base off the end of Bolton Platform 2.
a. More masts and bases between Preston and Blackpool. Only a handful of scrapes visible outside the two "workzone" stations - Kirkham & W and Blackpool N
b. Work taking place on Blackpool North's being-replaced-and-extended most westerly platforms (1 & 2?)
c. Scrapes on Tulketh Viaduct, their layout suggests the "slab" style as used around Salford Central to distribute load.
I take no pleasure in learning that NR have "come clean" that the project is delayed. When I was in work I always told my staff that if they really, really wanted to get wrong side of me they would pretend all was well then drop me in it at deadline time. Every reasonable person knows problems occur and people of goodwill can get behind you when facing difficulties, but keeping schtum then dropping everyone in it alienates everyone. Isn't life hard enough without creating rods for your own back?
That's a general point, but I would like to share my disappointment and bewilderment over what seems like two own goals, scored by the same people who had scored a fine goal earlier.
In 2015 Kearsley foot crossing was replaced with a footbridge. This was publicised and delivered as promised. So far, good practice, well done. The best bit was that the foot crossing remained open throughout, only closing as the bridge opened. I attach a selection of photos from the Combined Volume which I took at the time.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157687598685110
Comment: "That's the way to do it!"
Contrast this with Bradshaw Fields foot crossing/bridge where the crossing was closed for ages with no action, then not opened for weeks after completion. Looking at the new bridge it seems no closer to the old crossing than at Kearsley, but I'm open to correction on that. It is possible that the western access could not have been safely left open during building. I can imagine that failure to promptly reopen was down to a third party signing the bridge off, but I look forward to learning how closing the crossing then doing nowt for ages can be justified.
The Anderton Hall foot crossing replacement appears to be Bradshaw Fields2, except it isn't finished yet so it may reopen promptly. However, looking at where it is being built, ie several yards south of the foot crossing I can't see why the foot crossing was or is closed at all.
Ain't life hard enough without losing friends and uninfluencing people?
Photos from Bolton, Blackpool and Kirkham & Wesham later.
LDECRexile
Established Member
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Thanks for the update - not worried about Preston Fylde Jct to Blackpool North one bit - nice progress.
First of all, thank you for the fantastic photographic record that you are compiling. It is invaluable to the likes of people like myself, who for reasons I wouldn't want to bore you with find it difficult to get out and see for ourselves.
Secondly, I want to endorse your criticism of the crass way those in charge of this project have kept quiet about the problems and difficulties encountered until there are no further ways of making excuses. Better by far to be open and honest up front and get all the criticism out of the way instead of the charade that we have seen in which the project leaders are caught out and subsequently cannot be trusted.
More than 50 years ago a colleague of mine who had overslept was phoned at home by our Sales Manager. "Where are you?" asked the boss. "I'm in bed of course," replied my pal. "Ah Keith, always the comedian" he was told. The boss didn't believe him but he had told the truth and avoided a reprimand. And the moral of the story is admit to your failings if things are going wrong. People will generally understand. Obfuscation they definitely will NOT understand or appreciate.
Thanks again Dave and keep up the good work..........even if it takes you till 2020!
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
There will be reputations at stake, mostly higher up in NR Infrastructure Projects, already battered from the problems elsewhere.
There may also be shortcomings by contractors, of whom there are quite a few, and there may be contractual issues.
NR has never been candid about this project since the Balfour Beatty affair when they "walked off" the project (but picked up new work on GW).
I would hope they are more open (on a confidential basis) with their customers (the TOCs and Rail North), who must be very frustrated to have to keep altering their plans.
I can also imagine there is a sensitive issue over the Great North Project generally, just as upgrade plans are firming up on the TP section and cross-Pennine routes generally.
But we do at least have the forum's photographic and narrative record of progress, or the lack of it!
I also see from the TfGM report that the Ordsall Chord will scarcely be used initially by TPE because of pathing conflicts around Ordsall Lane/Victoria (because the Salford-Euxton wiring is not ready).
One point that seems very notable about the current phase 3-4 works compared with phases 1 and 2 is how close we are to the completion deadlines and yet no actual wire has appeared except at the extreme ends of the phase 4 route (and much of that probably under the Ordsall Chord contract rather than any phase 4 contract).
Can anyone remember when significant quantities of wire began to appear on phase 1 or on phase 2a?
Can anyone remember when significant quantities of wire began to appear on phase 1 or on phase 2a?
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
On the Blackpool line though there is a huge blockade and we still have a while before that starts too. I have no worries about that phase. Of course the very original plan was to do that bit first. Yes Euxton to Ordsall is quite a bit behind and as you say apart from the extremes not a single wire run.
it’s woke me up lol
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Wiring began quite early on Phase 1, east of the construction depot at Kenyon Jn.
I seem to remember 4-5 separate wired sections before they were all joined up.
The extremeties were I think the last to go up, especially Castlefield-Eccles, where the viaduct "bases" (fixings) were last to go in.
I remember the first wiring for Phase 2 (on the Wigan line rather than Chat Moss) began around Prescot about a year after piling started.
Generally, wiring doesn't seem to be the bottleneck, it's the installation of bases that determines overall progress.
Apart from the work at Huyton, Phase 1/2 didn't have many route changes to worry about, unlike the Bolton route.
But they did manage the crossing of Chat Moss very effectively, despite the massive bases and very long piles they had to install.
LDECRexile
Established Member
Agreed: no base, no mast no wire.
As a layman I wonder about the interfaces between teams (always hard, whatever line of work) and especially whether signalling works prevent progress with bases.
On the one hand, signals seem to be replaced, up and running before you can say Jack Robinson, but then exposed wiring hangs around for ages while new troughing for it is laid, a process which is evident from Salford to Blackpool. This may be a complete non-issue, progress north of Preston suggests it is, but progress south of Euxton and signal troughing replacement seem to stumble in harmony. Maybe they just face the same bad ground problem. Can anyone confirm or otherwise that this is a non-issue?
(On a detail, yesterday I'm pretty sure I saw two instances of new troughing being laid through the safe walking footway installed near replaced or new signals, one on the northbound side between Beaumont Rd bridge and Ladybridge. Can someone tell me I'm crackers?)
In a post yesterday (I think) you referred to Balfour Beatty walking away then getting more work down south. I have been agog at this for some time. I don't doubt it was legal to walk away, but it stinks. How can such an outfit ever be trusted again? A mini-progressometer exercise for a traveller would be to tot up the bare bases with big red crosses spray-painted on them, and ones with masts erected a few feet away (and I'm not talking about "tent pegs" awaiting connecting up.)
edwin_m
Veteran Member
They may be planning to do the wiring as late as possible before energisation, to reduce the opportunity for cable theft.
QueensCurve
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Many thanks for these.
I am finding it slightly difficult to find out what is going on with the track layout in 8568j. There is a turnout that appears to head at right angles to the track on the other side of the formation. Is this a relic or will something be modified as the layout goes forward?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
That odd curve (foreshortened in the photo) leads to the reversing siding at Kirkham South.
It's disused and will be removed completely in the rebuild.
The layout here and at Blackpool North only has 3 weeks to live before it is all consigned to history.
The building site on the left is the base for the new Up platform, and the new Up line can be seen in the distance (on the site of the old avoiding lines).
Elecman
Established Member
It depends how the wiring is to be run/installed, if it's from MEWPs then it takes a longer time, if done by the NR OCR team then it will be fairly quick as they can run out, install and register complete wire runs circa 1500 metres in an overnight shift.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Approx 20 nights then for Fylde Jct to Blackpool North
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