Numpty alert!! Out of date railcard

30907 · 10 Dec 2017

The slight complication is that the original ticket was purchased using an out of date railcard which wasn't spotted. I would still write and ask for a refund though.

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najaB · 10 Dec 2017

30907 said:
The slight complication is that the original ticket was purchased using an out of date railcard which wasn't spotted. I would still write and ask for a refund though.

Not sure that is a complication at all. You don't purchase your ticket with a railcard - you use your ticket with a railcard. There's nothing stopping me paying for a railcard discounted ticket, then buying the railcard at a later date (but before I travel). The OP had an in-date railcard at the time they used the tickets, so the policy should still apply.

MG11 · 11 Dec 2017

BanburyBlue said:
Yesterday, me and Mrs BanburyBlue went from Banbury to Birmingham to see the Christmas Market. We have a Two Together Railcard, so I dug this out and went down to the station on Wednesday to buy our tickets (2x off peak day returns). I had to show my railcard to the woman at the ticket office before buying the tickets. On the outbound portion of the trip (travelled XC) the train manager duly arrived to check tickets, and happily checked our tickets and looked at the railcard. As I was putting the tickets and railcard away, eagle eyed Mrs BanburyBlue said "the railcard is out of date". I checked and yes, it was. In my rush on Wednesday, I'd dived into the drawer and pulled out last years (don't know why I kept it!!). I opened and closed the wallet 2 or 3 times, but each time I opened it, yes, it was still out of date.

I didn't say anything to the train manager as he was half way up the carriage by then. I'm not sure why he didn't notice? Just before he checked our tickets he had an extended debate with two passengers over the XC reservation system, and got as far as blaming Conservative governments for XC not being allowed to buy longer trains, so I can only assume he was distracted and didn't give our railcard the scrutiny it deserved.

Anyway, we carried on to Birmingham, and I spent the day considering (worrying) what to do - own up or risk it! In the end, when we were in Grand Central, I went to the ticket office and confessed my sins. The guy was a bit aloof (not rude - but not friendly - no issue here) and as expected after some checking he sold me an excess (difference between full fare and railcard discounted fare). He was checking various options, 1, excess, 2, 2 x off-peak singles, 3, buy a new railcard. I must admit I was a bit miffed when he said the excess was the cheapest option and I replied "great we'll do that then". His reply was "Well sir, you haven't much choice". I thought hang on, I've been honest here, no need for that last statement!

One thing that did surprise me was that by then I knew what train we would be travelling back on, so I asked him to book me 2 seats. He said he couldn't? I'm assuming that was because he was only selling me an excess and not new tickets? Not because it was a Virgin ticket office?

Anyway, rest of journey panned out okay. Of course the train was so busy on the way home that the train manager couldn't get through to check tickets - but I guess that's not the point.

So moral of the story (of course) is to check your railcard before travelling!!

You both got off very lightly!! If a Revenue Protection Officer had found you to be travelling using an out of date railcard, it could have been an interview under caution for you both. Revenue Protection (rightly so) take out of date/altered cards very seriously.

I do a self check when travelling, when I get my ticket, I check that the right date has been printed, that it is an adult ticket, to the right location and also that no railcard has discount has been added in error (I don't like using railcards and don't have one). Then, when I am on the platform, I check again that I have my tickets with me, in case they have fallen out/been stolen as I have made use of the station facilities. If you scrutinise the ticket before travel, check that the information in it says what it should and then, keep the ticket safe with you, I find you get a peace of mind that those who just grab their tickets and get on the train don't get, given the risks they are running!

farleigh · 11 Dec 2017

MG11 said:
You both got off very lightly!! If a Revenue Protection Officer had found you to be travelling using an out of date railcard, it could have been an interview under caution for you both. Revenue Protection (rightly so) take out of date/altered cards very seriously.

I do a self check when travelling, when I get my ticket, I check that the right date has been printed, that it is an adult ticket, to the right location and also that no railcard has discount has been added in error (I don't like using railcards and don't have one). Then, when I am on the platform, I check again that I have my tickets with me, in case they have fallen out/been stolen as I have made use of the station facilities. If you scrutinise the ticket before travel, check that the information in it says what it should and then, keep the ticket safe with you, I find you get a peace of mind that those who just grab their tickets and get on the train don't get, given the risks they are running!

Yes those crazy people who trust rail staff to print the correct tickets!! :rolleyes:

najaB · 11 Dec 2017

farleigh said:
Yes those crazy people who trust rail staff to print the correct tickets!!

The NRCoT make it quite clear that the passenger should check that they have the correct tickets:

2.4 Once you have bought your Ticket, you should check that you have the correct Ticket(s) for the journey you intend to make. If you think a mistake has been made by the Train Company or Licenced Retailer that sold you the Ticket, you should tell them as soon as possible.

BanburyBlue · 11 Dec 2017

It does seem rather variable?

Depends on the mood of the train manager etc. I'm sure they hear every excuse in the book, and it must be hard to tell genuine numpty's like me from hard core fare evaders.

So far on this thread, the options on range from paying an excess to a court appearance.

I did take it seriously, which is why I went to the ticket office. Knowing a little about train travel, and being a member of this forum helps in knowing what sort of trouble people can get into with ticketing mistakes. But I know a lot of people who would have risked it, on the basis of "I do have a valid railcard at home, so what's the problem".

roversfan2001 · 11 Dec 2017

MG11 said:
You both got off very lightly!! If a Revenue Protection Officer had found you to be travelling using an out of date railcard, it could have been an interview under caution for you both. Revenue Protection (rightly so) take out of date/altered cards very seriously.

Isn't the protocol now to issue new tickets, which can be refunded if proof of a valid railcard is shown? Talk of interviews under caution is nonsense.

najaB · 11 Dec 2017

roversfan2001 said:
Isn't the protocol now to issue new tickets, which can be refunded if proof of a valid railcard is shown? Talk of interviews under caution is nonsense.

Technically that protocol applies to missing railcards, rather than out of date.

roversfan2001 · 11 Dec 2017

najaB said:
Technically that protocol applies to missing railcards, rather than out of date.

The in date railcard was missing if I've read the OP correctly.

IanD · 11 Dec 2017

roversfan2001 said:
Isn't the protocol now to issue new tickets, which can be refunded if proof of a valid railcard is shown? Talk of interviews under caution is nonsense.

Basically what I said last week.

nanstallon · 11 Dec 2017

IanD said:
I would think that this would apply in this situation. No reason to report for prosecution if this was the first occasion the railcard had been forgotten.

ttps://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2017/469772179-2017-03-21.html

By the book.

This is an improvement - the railways do need to be less aggressive towards people who make an honest mistake. Some of the comments above (admittedly backed by the book) make it look a bit of a minefield, to make a train journey!

Antman · 11 Dec 2017

falcon said:
......
And don't think because you are being honest you are doing something special.
People are not rewarded for being honest they are punished for being dishonest.

Really? Sadly all to often the exact opposite is true and this would seem a case in point.

The person in the ticket office at Banbury should have noticed the date but obviously we all make mistakes.

Antman · 11 Dec 2017

nanstallon said:
This is an improvement - the railways do need to be less aggressive towards people who make an honest mistake. Some of the comments above (admittedly backed by the book) make it look a bit of a minefield, to make a train journey!

Exactly, I witnessed an incident recently where an onboard ticket check revealed somebody with an out of date railcard. It was obviously a genuine mistake and the RPI took no further action, didn't even charge the excess, which made a refreshing change from some of the horror stories you read on here.

najaB · 11 Dec 2017

roversfan2001 said:
The in date railcard was missing if I've read the OP correctly.

You have, and it was. The issue would be that an out of date rail card was presented.

MG11 · 11 Dec 2017

roversfan2001 said:
The in date railcard was missing if I've read the OP correctly.

The railcard that the OP travelled on was out of date.

MG11 · 11 Dec 2017

najaB said:
You have, and it was. The issue would be that an out of date rail card was presented.

Correct, which is why the OP could have had action taken against them.

Starmill · 12 Dec 2017

MG11 said:
If you scrutinise the ticket before travel, check that the information in it says what it should and then, keep the ticket safe with you, I find you get a peace of mind that those who just grab their tickets and get on the train don't get, given the risks they are running!

While this approach might be fine for you, I rather suspect that, for most people, it's unnecessary and inconvenient. A lot like avoiding the use of a railcard for "revenue protection" reasons.

BanburyBlue said:
Depends on the mood of the train manager etc. I'm sure they hear every excuse in the book, and it must be hard to tell genuine numpty's like me from hard core fare evaders.

I'm sure they do. Lots of guards don't ask to see railcards at all.

roversfan2001 · 12 Dec 2017

MG11 said:
The railcard that the OP travelled on was out of date.

Which is why I said that their in date one was missing...

najaB · 12 Dec 2017

roversfan2001 said:
Which is why I said that their in date one was missing...

But they presented an out of date one so, strictly speaking, they have to be dealt with based on that one rather than the one which wasn't there.

A fair-minded RPI might give them the benefit of the doubt but a literal-minded one might not.

trentside · 12 Dec 2017

When it comes to out of date railcards my approach varies for a number of reasons. Our WorldlineMTS (Envoy) does not allow railcard to non-railcard X/S tickets to be issued, so officially our only option is to sell the customer a new ticket to their destination.

Where the railcard is out of date by a few days and the customer is changing at a station with a ticket office I sometimes give them the option of going to pay an X/S at the ticket office (VTEC do this regularly) or buy a new railcard if it works out cheaper for them and they’re coming across as genuine. In these circumstances I write “NO RAILCARD” and the headcode on the ticket. This tips off other ticket checkers if they fail to heed my advice.

If it’s a long way out of date or there’s an attitude issue i’m happy to charge for a brand new ticket to their destination.

BanburyBlue · 12 Dec 2017

It was (ahem) a long way out of day - it expired end of March 2016. I don't know why I kept it? My normal course of action would have been to open letter, remove new railcard, place new railcard in little plastic wallet, remove old railcard, shred old railcard.

So last years- 2016 to 2017 is gone, so must have been destroyed.

trentside · 12 Dec 2017

BanburyBlue said:
It was (ahem) a long way out of day - it expired end of March 2016. I don't know why I kept it? My normal course of action would have been to open letter, remove new railcard, place new railcard in little plastic wallet, remove old railcard, shred old railcard.

So last years- 2016 to 2017 is gone, so must have been destroyed.

Mistakes happen. There’s usually a pretty clear indication of genuine mistakes from people’s reactions when you point it out. I personally don’t come to work to be awkward or nasty to people (some thrive on it, I don’t) so I’m usually amenable to working out the best solution if it appears genuine!

nanstallon · 14 Dec 2017

trentside said:
When it comes to out of date railcards my approach varies for a number of reasons. Our WorldlineMTS (Envoy) does not allow railcard to non-railcard X/S tickets to be issued, so officially our only option is to sell the customer a new ticket to their destination.

Where the railcard is out of date by a few days and the customer is changing at a station with a ticket office I sometimes give them the option of going to pay an X/S at the ticket office (VTEC do this regularly) or buy a new railcard if it works out cheaper for them and they’re coming across as genuine. In these circumstances I write “NO RAILCARD” and the headcode on the ticket. This tips off other ticket checkers if they fail to heed my advice.

If it’s a long way out of date or there’s an attitude issue i’m happy to charge for a brand new ticket to their destination.

That seems reasonable.

MG11 · 14 Dec 2017

roversfan2001 said:
Which is why I said that their in date one was missing...

That's not the ticket that the OP was travelling 'on' though. The OP was travelling on a discounted ticket, using an out of date discount card.

IanD · 14 Dec 2017

MG11 said:
That's not the ticket that the OP was travelling 'on' though. The OP was travelling on a discounted ticket, using an out of date discount card.

Sold to them by a railway official who had adequate opportunity to point out the invalid railcard and refuse to sell the ticket. The ticket was not bought online but in a face to face transaction at a ticket office.

bb21 · 14 Dec 2017

Some of you are just going around in circles so can we drop it please.

najaB · 14 Dec 2017

IanD said:
Sold to them by a railway official who had adequate opportunity to point out the invalid railcard and refuse to sell the ticket.

Could you show me where there's an obligation placed on the staff member to validate that the railcard is in date, please?

IanD · 14 Dec 2017

najaB said:
Could you show me where there's an obligation placed on the staff member to validate that the railcard is in date, please?

Really?

najaB · 14 Dec 2017

IanD said:
Really?

Yes, really.

221129 · 14 Dec 2017

roversfan2001 said:
Isn't the protocol now to issue new tickets, which can be refunded if proof of a valid railcard is shown? Talk of interviews under caution is nonsense.

You can report for any irregularity. So definitely not nonsense.

Numpty alert!! Out of date railcard

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