If the TOCs TVMs only do tickets from the station one is at then entering London to Cambridge at Paddington should only bring up a ticket that is valid from Paddington.
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London terminals
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methethpropbut
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This makes the most sense to me to be honest and feels like the best way to transition to this model, which will probably be the best way to deal with the mess that is going to be Thameslink / Crossrail / Crossrail 2 / teleporter ray.
Of course one could go both ways and still maintain the "London Terminals" fares, but to a specific named station / group of stations (Kings' Cross / Moorgate comes to mind) instead. A bit of a compromise, but probably makes it a lot simpler which is the way it should be...
So you basically want me and millions of others, who has a London Travelcard and thus absolutely no requirement to pay for U1 travel, to pay extra to address a problem that affects people who don't understand the ticketing system and is caused by chronic underinvestment in ticketing infrastructure by the TOCs. Sorry 100% no way is my answer!
Genius... completely ignores the fact that I may actually be at say Paddington wishing to buy a ticket for a future journey from Euston... potentially completely screws impartial retailing too (no seeing potentially cheaper Chiltern fares to Birmingham at Euston for example)....
Nicholas43
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How about:
- 1. DfT sets a deadline for all ticket machines to offer tickets "from this station" or "from another station" [choose on next screen].
- 2. Machines at eg Paddington required to know that Paddington to eg Cambridge is U1 to Cambridge.
- 3. "London terminals" to be replaced by the (fairly easily looked up?) 3-character abbreviations for the terminals you can reasonably use: eg Oxford to PAD/MYB/VIC/LOR [see 5]; or the terminal you are booked to and others you might get diverted to: eg Oxford to PAD (MYB/WAT)
- 4. Rail Delivery Group to be given a short deadline for proposing a sensible list of London terminals you can reasonably use from each line; DfT to consult Yorkie before approving it, or not.
- 5. LOR means London Riverside group, ie Vauxhall, Waterloo, Waterloo East, Charing Cross, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Cannon Street, London Bridge.
- 6. Tickets on Elizabeth Line to be to or from named stations, eg Bond Street, Farringdon, or to or from Zone(s) Un. Dunno how revenue of Zone tickets would be split between Crossrail and TfL.
Kite159
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Wouldn't that be just as confusing as the existing "London Terminals" to infrequent travellers?
Nicholas43
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Possibly. But I hope not. It would always mean the same stations, like LIVERPOOL STNS, and unlike LONDON TERMINALS, which means a varying and sometimes disputed selection depending on where you are coming from (or going to).
swt_passenger
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Used to be London SR group. But I'd want Victoria and Paddington in at as well...
Nicholas43
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Indeed. I am suggesting that LONDON RIV[ERSIDE] ST[ATIO]NS is easier (but perhaps not easy enough?) to understand. From eg Basingstoke, destination would be LOR/VIC/PAD [via Reading and Slough]. From Greenwich, LOR/VIC [but, if I understand it correctly, not PAD].
swt_passenger
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I'd agree with Paddington being a separate entity, but think that due to the 'mesh' of lines in the SR, VIC needn't be treated differently to the others.
I don't see anyone saying you shouldn't be able to buy tickets from another station if that is what you request. The point is that machines should actually issue what was requested, not automatically issue a ticket from some other station when the customer requested a ticket from this station.
London terminals is a badly designed group, and the name is factually wrong since some of these so-called "London Terminals" are not terminals, but that is a completely separate issue to a ticket machine issuing a different ticket to what was requested.
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Your "100% no way" is founded on a non-issue since anyone with a travelcard should be better off buying a Boundary Zone ticket anyway.
What do you suggest instead? Clearly as passengers we don't want to pay any more or lose any flexibility that we enjoy with 'London Terminals'. Equally the train operating companies won't want to lose any revenue either.
First of all the name should be truthful - calling a through station where no service ever terminates a "terminal" is clearly untrue and frankly absurd.
A clear and concise name along the lines of "London Zone 1 NR" would do well to indicate any National Rail station in London Zone 1. This would give the same validity as London Terminals and London Thameslink, and also resolve the anomalies concerning travel through Farringdon.
Interesting suggestion. How would you make up the revenue shortfall?
I'm not sure 'London Zone 1 NR' is any clearer than 'London Terminals'.
What revenue shortfall?
It would be factually correct, which calling through stations "terminals" obviously isn't. The current name being factually wrong ought to be reason enough to correct it.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Realistically, the current situation is a bit silly, partly because of the problems the OP highlighted, and partly because you have a ticket with a misleading name and for which it's often not at all clear precisely where it's valid to. But any revenue-neutral way of fixing it is obviously going to involve some passengers paying slightly less and other passengers paying slightly more - mathematically, there's no other way for it to be possible for an adjustment to be revenue-neutral (unless it somehow brings in more passengers). If you adopt the view that you should never change anything that leads to some passengers paying a bit more, then you'll end up never changing anything - which would not be a good way to go because realistically the current fares system is far too complex and contains numerous inconsistencies and absurdities that really need resolving (not just about London terminals). (And yes, I know the ideal would be to reduce fares overall, but obviously that requires much more Government support and investment than the Government appear willing to provide).
Personally I still think that making all London tickets London zone 1 would be best - since as Dent pointed out, anyone who already has a travelcard should be able to simply buy a boundary zone 1 ticket instead (although that does require ticket machines to sell them and passengers to know about them).
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Stevenage - London Terminals is currently valid to Kings Cross, Moorgate and Old Street. If I want to go to another National Rail station in Zone 1 I have to pay extra.
Under your proposal would a ticket to 'London Zone 1 NR' be valid to travel to, say, Blackfriars or London Bridge? What about Euston or Paddington, or even Whitechapel?
What happens when Crossrail opens? Would a Chelmsford - 'London Zone 1 NR' be valid to Paddington?
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Well, you'd hope a London Terminals ticket would be valid for that too: Consider that from Chelmsford, you'll presumably soon be able to change at Stratford onto a Crossrail train without going through any barrier, and then travel to Paddington. Since the ticket currently says 'London Terminals' and Paddington is a London terminal, it would seem very reasonable for someone who doesn't have expert knowledge of railways to assume that's allowed.
I suspect that on a London terminals ticket, that won't be allowed - which is misleading and likely to catch quite a few people out.
Looking at the map, I can't see any practical National Rail routes from Stevenage to London Bridge, Blackfriars, Paddington or Euston. What routes were you thinking of?
Whitchapel is not even a Zone 1 station, it is in Zone 2.
If there are fringe cases where the fares are different to different Zone 1 destinations then these are anomalies anyway since the fares in Greater London are supposed to be zonal. Replacing all of them with the average price, weighted by expected number of sales or each ticket, would be revenue-neutral.
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I suggest that London Terminals could be replaced by a ticket to LU zone 1 albeit more expensive. If you don't need the underground have a ticket to Paddington, Waterloo or wherever.
To protect the present exceptions tickets could be sold from, say, Cambridge to Farringdon or Bournemouth to London Bridge without penalty but limited to the most direct route.
To protect the present exceptions tickets could be sold from, say, Cambridge to Farringdon or Bournemouth to London Bridge without penalty but limited to the most direct route.
Maybe I've misunderstood your proposal but I could travel from Stevenage to Blackfriars by popping across the road to St Pancras (or direct service from next year).
It was Shoreditch I was thinking of rather than Whitechapel. In any case I don't think it will be acceptable to increase prices of tickets to London Terminals in case a passenger wishes to travel further.
That would result in a loss of flexibility for passengers. Cambridge to London Terminals can be used into Kings Cross, Moorgate or Liverpool Street. Moving to named stations would result in a significant loss of flexibility which would not be popular.
lightning76
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How about splitting London Terminals into geographical groups for ticketing purposes, eg London Terminals West for GWR services to include Marylebone, Paddington and Waterloo; London Terminals NorthWest including Paddington, Marylebone and Euston, etc. Validity to a specific terminus would depend on a permitted route being available, so no Newbury to Marylebone for instance. There would be nothing to prevent a ticket being sold to another London Terminals group at the passengers request, either as the higher U1 fare or by allowing travel on Thameslink/Crossrail where appropriate.
This would at least give clarity to passengers as to which stations their ticket would be valid to or from, whilst still preserving long-standing local options such as Kings Cross / Moorgate. As for the OP's problem, the machine at Paddington would then either be able to sell tickets from other London Terminals groups under the "starting from other stations" option, or whatever it's called, or the machine would not have that function available, as in many other places. Either way the situation would be made plain(er).
This would at least give clarity to passengers as to which stations their ticket would be valid to or from, whilst still preserving long-standing local options such as Kings Cross / Moorgate. As for the OP's problem, the machine at Paddington would then either be able to sell tickets from other London Terminals groups under the "starting from other stations" option, or whatever it's called, or the machine would not have that function available, as in many other places. Either way the situation would be made plain(er).
Hmm... really... Your statement isn't even always true in the old Network SouthEast area (have a look at some of the fares from central London to Gatwick for example) let alone further afield.
Please enlighten me how well that works on Euston to Birmingham for example....
I did day "should be". I am aware that some Boundary Zone fares are currently missing, and that is another issue that also needs to be addressed.
Saying "100% no way should any effort ever be made to address this issue because another issue also exists" Is hardly constructive. The right approach would be "two issues exist therefore efforts should be made to address both of them".
xotGD
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How about a destination of 'London British Rail' with no validity on the tube but valid on rail services through central London to get to any station in Zone 1?
When someone selects London from a TVM, I don't know why it can't offer a choice of Travelcard, a London Terminal (or shown as the valid terminals from that origin) and any station within zone 1 and/or 2. Rather than expecting people to know the ticket type to select from the off.
The user then at least knows what to expect as the screen can show a lot more info than the ticket itself. By all means pop up a disclaimer that must be selected so any subsequent arguments can be dealt with by saying 'you accepted the terms'.
As the any permitted tickets are gradually changed to show more detail, I don't see a problem with the idea of showing London Terminals with the 3 digit station codes instead. They can be easily looked up and now feature on many timetables, route maps and the National Rail app could easily offer a look up table for users. Heck, print barcodes and let the user scan their ticket for more detail (even easier than the /(code) lookup URL for restrictions that I'm sure many people don't know about).
I think it's mad to sell a ticket that isn't valid from that station, and crazy for people to assume that not everyone wants to travel from there or may have another ticket. Of course some might, but that's not the default stance for a ticket machine to take.
The user then at least knows what to expect as the screen can show a lot more info than the ticket itself. By all means pop up a disclaimer that must be selected so any subsequent arguments can be dealt with by saying 'you accepted the terms'.
As the any permitted tickets are gradually changed to show more detail, I don't see a problem with the idea of showing London Terminals with the 3 digit station codes instead. They can be easily looked up and now feature on many timetables, route maps and the National Rail app could easily offer a look up table for users. Heck, print barcodes and let the user scan their ticket for more detail (even easier than the /(code) lookup URL for restrictions that I'm sure many people don't know about).
I think it's mad to sell a ticket that isn't valid from that station, and crazy for people to assume that not everyone wants to travel from there or may have another ticket. Of course some might, but that's not the default stance for a ticket machine to take.
All Line Rover
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As island has indicated, the gates have been moved beyond that lift so as to incorporate it within the gated part of the station.
Logically, I'd suggest that any journey to/from/via Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road or Farringdon would require Zone 1 validity, and those to/from/via Canary Wharf or Whitechapel would require Zone 2 validity.
Sadly I suspect that it'll end up more complex than that and passengers only travelling to Paddington from the West or Liverpool Street from the East will also effectively be "penalised" with higher fares.
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