London terminals

[yorkie]

It took me a while when I was younger to really understand London terminals.

Advances should be to the appropriate named station; in the event of disruption Advance fares are often accepted on varied routes or TOCs anyway.

So no more Advance fares on GWR if they are diverted to/from Marylebone/Waterloo due to planned engineering works? (to give just one example)

Flexible fares from outside the Network Railcard area I'd replace them with 'London U1' as a destination an include a single tube journey in the ticket. Potentially, I'd retain it from within the Network Railcard area - as many of these will be shorter journeys where adding in the a tube journey to the cost would be quite notciable. However, from these stations travellers are more likely to be generally familiar with travel to London anyway.

Good idea in theory but I suspect LU will want a lot of money for that.

 

[cuccir]

So no more Advance fares on GWR if they are diverted to/from Marylebone/Waterloo due to planned engineering works? (to give just one example)

Good idea in theory but I suspect LU will want a lot of money for that.

If GWR are diverting to Marylebone/Waterloo then their Advances can be sold to those stations, as per the timetable. If tickets have already been sold and the timetable is later changed, then the TOC retains a responsibility to refund or accommodate passengers.

 

[Wombat]

But as every Zone 1 Tube station has barriers they won't will they?

It's not unusual for me to be waved through the barriers when a ticket doesn't work. I'll concede it's possible that an experienced attendant may be able to determine validity from a very brief glance at a distance, but I suspect that on some occasions it's because I don't look like a stereotypical fare evader. I haven't kept a running total, but I'd say that it's a roughly 50-50 split between thorough scrutiny and (at most) a cursory glance.

 

[Nicholas43]

This idea is sensible and does not cause hardship for passengers or reduce our flexibility or rights, it is therefore rejected by RDG.

Is it rejected by Rail Delivery Group out of hand, or just considered Too Difficult for the Train Operating Companies whose machines only do tickets from the station they are at?
Is it practicable for the machines at Paddington to offer a "from another station" option, and also decide for themselves between (a) Paddington National Rail, and (b) Paddington platform 16 = London U1 ?

 

[yorkie]

It's not unusual for me to be waved through the barriers when a ticket doesn't work. I'll concede it's possible that an experienced attendant may be able to determine validity from a very brief glance at a distance, but I suspect that on some occasions it's because I don't look like a stereotypical fare evader. I haven't kept a running total, but I'd say that it's a roughly 50-50 split between thorough scrutiny and (at most) a cursory glance.

Gateline assistants aren't given much in the way of ticket training, especially if you're talking about LU gateline assistants and National Rail tickets. I know several LU staff who have experience of working on gatelines (before gaining promotions) and they learnt far more from this forum than their training covered.

Is it rejected by Rail Delivery Group out of hand, or just considered Too Difficult for the Train Operating Companies whose machines only do tickets from the station they are at?

Is it practicable for the machines at Paddington to offer a "from another station" option, and also decide for themselves between (a) Paddington National Rail, and (b) Paddington platform 16 = London U1 ?

To be fair, something does need to be done about Crossrail.

However the plan does appear to be to restrict tickets. For example Richmond to London Terminals is valid into London Euston and London St Pancras. The former is officially recognised and undisputed, the latter (despite previously being a direct service) is not officially recognised as intended to be valid by RDG, for reasons that are not apparent, but you can get tickets with itineraries and it is valid.

But head a bit further west, say to Twickenham, and while there are good people within RDG who agree that Twickenham to Euston is, and should be, valid, that is not a universal view. You can currently get itineraries and tickets are valid, but the intention of some of the 'powers that be' is indeed to re-route the tickets in a way that prevents their use into Euston.

In these examples it is nonsensical for RDG to deny us our rights; paper tickets are very expensive anyway and people can make those journeys on Oyster. But they seem hell bent on removing passenger rights and flexibility.

They want to scrap the Routeing Guide and replace it with something more restrictive.

It's a war on passengers basically.

 

[sheff1]

I believe an even bigger problem than the London Terminals farce is the fact that you can buy a ticket from a station with the expectation that it’s valid from there... when it isn’t.

This is indeed the main problem. If you buy a ticket from a TVM at St Pancras to, say, a Brighton Mainline station it will print St Pancras as the origin. If, however, you buy one to a SouthWest Mainline destination the origin is printed as London Terminals. There is (or was not last time I tried) nothing on the TVM to (i) indicate what will be printed on the ticket (ii) explain that the SWML ticket is not valid for travel via the default route returned by journey planners- tube to Waterloo or Vauxhall.

We have heard that it is "difficult" for TVMs to issue tickets from a different station to the one you are at, yet at St Pancras (and clearly also at Paddington) they will issue such a ticket without any warning / explanation.

I like the system on SNCF TER machines where, before you pay for a ticket, an image of the ticket which will print is displayed. That way you can be certain what you will get (and can cancel the transaction if it not what you want) ..... but, of course, here this would not assist those who did not understand the significance of "London Terminals".

 

[Nicholas43]

But head a bit further west, say to Twickenham, and while there are good people within RDG who agree that Twickenham to Euston is, and should be, valid, that is not a universal view. You can currently get itineraries and tickets are valid, but the intention of some of the 'powers that be' is indeed to re-route the tickets in a way that prevents their use into Euston.

Hmm. If I buy a London Terminals to Oxford ticket from a machine at Euston, in an ideal world would it be valid via Willesden Junction and Richmond?

 

[whhistle]

I'm guessing you work for a TOC?

Apart from anyone south of the Thames, the West Midlands, much of Scotland, the former "WAGN" routes....

How does restricting validity help people?

I say "we" figuratively :P

Although depends where in the West Midlands... Birmingham area yes perhaps, but if you lived in Solihull, I'd find it almost amazing that you'd catch a train to somewhere on the West Coast and board a Virgin Train from there.
If you're coming from even Marston Green or somewhere like that, I'd find it amazing if you commuted into Birmingham just to get on the Chiltern Line. Perhaps it does happen, but perhaps not.

I just can't see anyone purposely changing trains just to get into London via another station. Admittedly though, I have no idea on Southern parts.

How many people does this affect though?
It's hassle to have to visit another TVM at another station to get the ticket you want, (remember, Ticket Offices can still issue tickets from anywhere to anywhere), but are the public intelligent enough to work out what sort of ticket they want? Sounds rude, and in my experience, the general answer is no. But perhaps there could be an "expert" mode for TVM's that allow you to make all manner of selections.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think it's that an uncommon a request to want to buy from a TVM the 'wrong' London Terminal.

e.g. You might want to travel from Reading to Peterborough and already hold a season ticket from Reading to London. So you use the season ticket to get to Paddington, then go to a TVM, type in Peterborough and buy what the machine suggests. Most people are going to assume (quite reasonably) that the ticket that is vended will be valid from where you currently are to the destination you typed. However,a London Terminals ticket will be vended and not be valid for the tube.

 

[worried456]

I just wanted to say thanks for all the replies - I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one slightly baffled by the system, and also that I didn't do anything unreasonable. I feel much better about the whole thing

 

[greyman42]

When I travel from York to Kings Cross on a super off peak, can I go forward to Moorgate using the Underground?

 

[Nicholas43]

When I travel from York to Kings Cross on a super off peak, can I go forward to Moorgate using the Underground?

Come come, are you having a laugh, or what? If you have followed London Terminals 101, you should know that a super off peak something-or-other from York to London terminals is valid to Moorgate via Finsbury Park and Essex Road (but not Kings Cross and Farringdon). What, after all, could be clearer than restriction L1:

Not valid on trains timed to arrive:
London Terminals (except as shown below) after 04:29 and before 11:17;
London Liverpool Street after 04:29 and before 10:00;
London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 11:26;
London Euston after 07:19 and before 11:30;
Stevenage after 03:59 and before 10:55;
Luton or Luton Airport Parkway after 04:29 and before 11:26;
Bedford after 04:29 and before 10:30;
Watford Junction after 06:43 and before 10:45;
Milton Keynes Central after 06:39 and before 10:48.

So it is also valid to Liverpool Street via March, and St Pancras via Bedford, and Marylebone via Verney Junction.

 

[Hadders]

When I travel from York to Kings Cross on a super off peak, can I go forward to Moorgate using the Underground?

If it's routed 'Any Permitted' then you may use London Undergorund to travel between Kings Cross St Pancras at Moorgate but you may not alight at any intermediate stations (except Old Street).

 

[Nicholas43]

If it's routed 'Any Permitted' then you may use London Undergorund to travel between Kings Cross St Pancras at Moorgate but you may not alight at any intermediate stations (except Old Street).

The NRE journey planner indeed suggests York>KX>Underground to Highbury&Islington>Moorgate. But I couldn't get an actual ticket, Maltese Cross and all, to do that. In theory, it would presumably be York to Moorgate via London ...

 

[sheff1]

The NRE journey planner indeed suggests York>KX>Underground to Highbury&Islington>Moorgate. But I couldn't get an actual ticket, Maltese Cross and all, to do that. In theory, it would presumably be York to Moorgate via London ...

No Maltese Cross required. A York to London Terminals 'Any Permitted' ticket is valid to Moorgate as previously described.

 

[Hadders]

Kings Cross St Pancras to Moorgate is an inter-available route. No maltese cross is needed.

See section 7.3.3 of our fares and ticketing guide

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ection-7-integrated-fares.70022/#post-1315636

 

[Nicholas43]

Isn't it 7.3.4 that Greyman42 needs to print out? Be that as it may, Virgin East Coast's booking engine doesn't understand it. It will sell you a super off peak York to Moorgate (via Essex Road) for £105.20, routed to London Terminals. It won't sell anything if you stipulate Moorgate via King's Cross. If you naively ask for Moorgate via Farringdon, it will route you via Thameslink, and sell you York to U1 for £108.20. By the way, surely a (wholly theoretical) doubling back from King's Cross to Highbury and Islington on the Piccadilly, and then via Essex Road, would need a (wholly theoretical) Maltese Cross?

 

[Hadders]

Isn't it 7.3.4 that Greyman42 needs to print out? Be that as it may, Virgin East Coast's booking engine doesn't understand it. It will sell you a super off peak York to Moorgate (via Essex Road) for £105.20, routed to London Terminals. It won't sell anything if you stipulate Moorgate via King's Cross. If you naively ask for Moorgate via Farringdon, it will route you via Thameslink, and sell you York to U1 for £108.20. By the way, surely a (wholly theoretical) doubling back from King's Cross to Highbury and Islington on the Piccadilly, and then via Essex Road, would need a (wholly theoretical) Maltese Cross?

Oops, yes. Section 7.3.4. My bad. In my experience these tickets work the barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras.

 

[Nicholas43]

... In my experience these tickets work the barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras.

Ah, thanks, I didn't know that. (It's covered in London Terminals 105, no doubt!)
So with an east coast to London Terminals ticket, you can get onto the eastbound Met/Circle platform at King's Cross St Pancras LUL, and proceed to Moorgate, which is no longer possible on Network Rail track. Your ticket will (I presume) let you out at Moorgate. It won't let you out at Farringdon, still less Blackfriars, though you can get to Farringdon and Blackfriars on Network Rail track, currently from St Pancras deep level, and soon (I think?) from King's Cross annex, or some such?
So the rule is, roughly, that London Terminals is where you could get to in 1890 (or some such), but not if you couldn't still in 1960 (eg Moorgate from Verney Junction), even if you can again in 2018 (Blackfriars from York). And presumably, in future, not because you can in 2020 (Faffingdon from Maidenhead).

 

[Wallsendmag]

Pretty sure a SSR from York to London Terminals isn't valid to Marylebone

 

[swt_passenger]

So the rule is, roughly, that London Terminals is where you could get to in 1890 (or some such), but not if you couldn't still in 1960 (eg Moorgate from Verney Junction), even if you can again in 2018 (Blackfriars from York). And presumably, in future, not because you can in 2020 (Faffingdon from Maidenhead).

The inter-availability was established in the late 1970s when the Northern City line was transferred to BR, and the GN suburban services ran into Moorgate via Drayton Park rather than via Kings Cross York Rd. Until very recently, the GN into Moorgate did not run all day or 7/7, so there had to be an alternative provided.

There is also a reasonable argument that the inter availability on LU is no longer required.

So far there is no indication whatsoever that London Terminals would include something such as Maidenhead to Farringdon. My money is on typical ineptitude and RDG feigning complete surprise about the issue on the very day Crossrail starts.

 

[mattdickinson]

The inter-availability was established in the late 1970s when the Northern City line was transferred to BR, and the GN suburban services ran into Moorgate via Drayton Park rather than via Kings Cross York Rd. Until very recently, the GN into Moorgate did not run all day or 7/7, so there had to be an alternative provided.

There is also a reasonable argument that the inter availability on LU is no longer required.

So far there is no indication whatsoever that London Terminals would include something such as Maidenhead to Farringdon. My money is on typical ineptitude and RDG feigning complete surprise about the issue on the very day Crossrail starts.

Tickets from Maidenhead eastwards to London Terminals have already been replaced with tickets to London Paddington.

 

[swt_passenger]

Tickets from Maidenhead eastwards to London Terminals have already been replaced with tickets to London Paddington.

Yes, and this has come up in other threads recently. The London Terminals validity issues are far more complex generally though, especially from South of London.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If GWR are diverting to Marylebone/Waterloo then their Advances can be sold to those stations, as per the timetable.

Not if the advances are all defined to London Paddington only - this means they aren't valid to Marylebone or Waterloo and booking engines and journey planners wouldn't be able to sell them. It's not a matter of putting in a simple easement to allow a different route, as it would be at present - extensive changes would be needed to the fares database and I suspect the TOCs concerned wouldn't have the resources or the inclination to identify all fares so affected and temporarily make the required changes. It would be a very messy job indeed.

It seems quite likely to me that the people responsible for the initiative to replace group stations like London Terminals with specific destinations like London Paddington have either not thought this through, or see it as someone else's problem, with that "someone else" blissfully unaware of the mess that is being created.

 

[island]

Except Euston Square which does have a barrier-less entrance using the lift. (Pedant hat off!)

I think they’ve moved the gateline to kill that loophole.

 

[PeterC]

Not if the advances are all defined to London Paddington only - this means they aren't valid to Marylebone or Waterloo and booking engines and journey planners wouldn't be able to sell them. It's not a matter of putting in a simple easement to allow a different route, as it would be at present - extensive changes would be needed to the fares database and I suspect the TOCs concerned wouldn't have the resources or the inclination to identify all fares so affected and temporarily make the required changes. It would be a very messy job indeed.

It seems quite likely to me that the people responsible for the initiative to replace group stations like London Terminals with specific destinations like London Paddington have either not thought this through, or see it as someone else's problem, with that "someone else" blissfully unaware of the mess that is being created.

The board doesn't quote the full chain of the conversation. If a train is diverted, which is the specific issue that Indigo2 is replying to, then I assume that the ticket would retain its validity. What would be restricted is the passenger's ability to choose an alternative route.

Outside of the former Southern Region, where successive trains may run to different terminii, this isn't an issue for most travellers as they just want to get to their destination and aren't interested in track bashing.

 

[Hadders]

So far there is no indication whatsoever that London Terminals would include something such as Maidenhead to Farringdon. My money is on typical ineptitude and RDG feigning complete surprise about the issue on the very day Crossrail starts.

The inter-availability is needed now more than ever. Consider a passenger travelling from stations on the Hertford Loop wanting to go to Kings Cross (i.e leisure passengers at weekends). They now need to change to reach Kings Cross so need to make use of the inter-availability.

I agree about RDG ineptitude about London Terminals and Crossrail. 'London Crossrail' or 'London Elizabeth' anyone....

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The simplest solution is for the TVM to recommend a ticket from London U1 or similar when a destination requiring the tube is entered. Sadly they do not do this.

That would certainly be better than the current situation. I wonder if an even simpler solution would be to simply abolish 'London terminals' tickets that don't allow underground travel: Instead, have it that tickets to/from any destination outside London to 'London terminals' becomes to/from 'London zone 1', allowing the holder to make one tube journey within zone 1 at the end of the rail journey. That would mean you could completely do away with all the rules about what constitutes a valid London terminal for a given destination. (Obviously if making that change, you'd probably want to slightly reduce the price of London zone1 tickets to bring them more into line with current London terminals fares).

 

[maniacmartin]

I wonder if an even simpler solution would be to simply abolish 'London terminals' tickets that don't allow underground travel: Instead, have it that tickets to/from any destination outside London to 'London terminals' becomes to/from 'London zone 1', allowing the holder to make one tube journey within zone 1 at the end of the rail journey. That would mean you could completely do away with all the rules about what constitutes a valid London terminal for a given destination. (Obviously if making that change, you'd probably want to slightly reduce the price of London zone1 tickets to bring them more into line with current London terminals fares).

Without a bump in price, that would result in a loss of revenue to the TOCs, as TfL will take a cut for the Underground bit. And I'm not so sure those who didn't need the tube would want to subsidize those who did, by being forced to pay a U1 addon

 

[Merseysider]

I agree with the idea, and it’s largely similar to DB’s successful “Hamburg+City” for example, where inner city travel is included for free at the end of a long journey. Probably easier to implement when almost everything’s funded/owned by one company though.

Could be done by freezing U1 fares and gradually increasing Terminals fares until parity, and then abolishing the latter, but I suspect there’s little appetite for this or it would’ve been done already.