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Hypothetical question regarding 1st class

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cactustwirly

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What would happen if I sat in first class with a standard ticket, where a first class ticket in not available for my journey.

For example Twyford to Bexhill is set by GWR, therefore there are no first class fares available, even though London to Hastings trains carry first class.
 
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roversfan2001

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I'm not 100% sure but I'd have thought you'd be charged an excess between the standard class and first class fares for the portion of your journey where you're sat in first.
 

47513 Severn

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According to brfares.com there are first class fares for that flow, see:
http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=TWY&dest=BEX
But, to answer the original question, I would imagine you would be asked to move to standard at the outset. If you declined to do so, a penalty fare or a report to the prosecutions department would be the next step.
 

221129

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According to brfares.com there are first class fares for that flow, see:
http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=TWY&dest=BEX
But, to answer the original question, I would imagine you would be asked to move to standard at the outset. If you declined to do so, a penalty fare or a report to the prosecutions department would be the next step.
Not sure how a penalty fare would work or a prosecution tbh.
 

47513 Severn

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PF or prosecution because you are sat in first class accommodation without a first class ticket. First class fares not existing doesn't create an entitlement to break the rules. Some operators allow upgrades on board in certain circumstances but not all and not Southeastern or GTR.

I think we would need to find a flow where such a journey could actually be made, it is very much dependant on the operator in question. I believe something similar has been discussed before but in the context of a train with first class being used on a route which didn't normally have it (Norwich - Sheringham iirc). Some posters put forward suggestions to charge an upgrade based on the difference between other fares that covered the route but others believed this was 'making up fares' and not allowable.

It's a bit of a can of worms, like the other common first class debates!
 

221129

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PF or prosecution because you are sat in first class accommodation without a first class ticket. First class fares not existing doesn't create an entitlement to break the rules. Some operators allow upgrades on board in certain circumstances but not all and not Southeastern.

I think we would need to find a flow where such a journey could actually be made, it is very much dependant on the operator in question. I believe something similar has been discussed before but in the context of a train with first class being used on a route which didn't normally have it (Norwich - Sheringham iirc). Some posters put forward suggestions to charge an upgrade based on the difference between other fares that covered the route but others believed this was 'making up fares' and not allowable.

It's a bit of a can of worms, like the other common first class debates!
A PF would not be valid. And I think a prosecution would struggle as how can you buy a ticket that doesn't exist?
 

najaB

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Pretty sure a magistrate would struggle to be able to deliver a guilty verdict if of the passenger made an effort to buy a first class ticket but couldn't....
The two questions that a magistrate would seek to answer are: 1) Was there a fare that would allow travel in the first class accommodation on that train? Yes. 2) Did the passenger pay said fare? No.

Guilty.
 

TheAdelante

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Isn’t it just easier not to risk it and just sit in Standard or ask the guard if first is declassified? Or how much the supplement to a first class ticket for your journey is - if there isn’t one and you have a nice guard they might say “Just sit there” that’s happened to me quite a few times. ;)

Not my place to tell you what to do but I wouldn’t risk it personally :)
 

bb21

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I agree that it would be a Penalty Fare from my understanding.

Twice the fare would be twice the fare for the portion of journey affected if no through fare were available and if none could be created.

This may fall into the category of journeys where mandatory "splitting" would be required. I won't claim to know the exact formulae how such a split should be calculated valid for all such journeys in all cases, however in the scenario given, splitting the journey into a fare valid in First Class for the portion where such facility were offered (plus connecting legs if appropriate at either end of the journey), and another covering the leg(s) where no First Class provision were available would be a reasonable option. That said there is no guarantee it would be the cheapest combination, however I do not believe there is an absolute obligation to offer the cheapest combination in such circumstances, as long as the option has been provided to the customer and the customer deemed it suitable for their needs.
 

Deafdoggie

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I had a rail travel voucher once-a few years ago-and only wanted to travel from Kidsgrove to Alsager. The voucher was a bit more than the fare (it was a paltry amount!) so I asked London Midland if I could use it for first Class, they said yes (of course) so I asked the fare. They said there wasn't one! So I asked how I could use it then! The problem was that EMT set the fare, and they don't have first class. Eventually, LM got EMT to set first class fares on local journeys, I'm not sure anyone has every purchased one-but they are there now. However, as part of our debate, they said the rules were that I could not sit in First class, even if there is no First Class fare. The only time you can do this, is if the train is not scheduled to have First Class, but then does, when travelling in first class with a standard ticket is allowed. I did ask what would happen if I did sit in first where no fare is available, and they didn't know, but just said not to do it!
 

CaptainHaddock

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PF or prosecution because you are sat in first class accommodation without a first class ticket. First class fares not existing doesn't create an entitlement to break the rules. Some operators allow upgrades on board in certain circumstances but not all and not Southeastern or GTR.

I think we would need to find a flow where such a journey could actually be made, it is very much dependant on the operator in question. I believe something similar has been discussed before but in the context of a train with first class being used on a route which didn't normally have it (Norwich - Sheringham iirc). Some posters put forward suggestions to charge an upgrade based on the difference between other fares that covered the route but others believed this was 'making up fares' and not allowable.

It's a bit of a can of worms, like the other common first class debates!

How about the Sumer Saturdays Nottingham - Skegness HST? I travelled on it back in July in the first class section - there were no signs to say first class was declassified but as no first class fares exist on the route, I and many others were not queried when our tickets were inspected.
 

AlterEgo

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How about the Sumer Saturdays Nottingham - Skegness HST? I travelled on it back in July in the first class section - there were no signs to say first class was declassified but as no first class fares exist on the route, I and many others were not queried when our tickets were inspected.

That train is declassified. It was shown in the timetable not to convey First Class.
 

kieron

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You still haven't explained why a penalty fare would be invalid or why a Byelaw 19 prosecution would fail.
The usual reason is "no opportunity to purchase a first class ticket" (although I would expect an RPI to offer to sell one in that situation). Another could be "unable to find a suitable first class ticket".

Imagine someone travelling on a weekday evening from Urmston to Manchester Picadilly who joins first class at Manchester Oxford Road, and is approached by an RPI before the next stop.

This person will have stood on two stations with ticket offices, but both will have been closed at the time (at least, if NRE is accurate). There are also ticket machines at the interchange station, but there are no first class fares set from there to Manchester Picadilly.

There are tickets a customer could buy from the machine there which would be valid in first class for the remainder of the journey, but guessing which these are is not straightforward.

Both trains have on-board staff who can sell tckets, for what that's worth.
 

najaB

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The usual reason is "no opportunity to purchase a first class ticket" (although I would expect an RPI to offer to sell one in that situation). Another could be "unable to find a suitable first class ticket".
I agree that if there's no opportunity to purchase then they can't be given a PF or prosecuted, but the problem is that there *was* an opportunity to purchase a standard class ticket, so they still need to answer the question: "You had a standard class ticket, why were you in first class accommodation?"
 

jkdd77

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I once travelled on the 07:37 XC service from Patchway to Bristol Temple Meads, in standard class, buying my ticket at the first opportunity on arrival at Bristol Temple Meads.

I wondered at the time what would have happened if I had travelled in first class, and asked to be sold a first class ticket, given that:
1) Patchway has no purchase facilities whatsoever (so PFs are out of the question);
2) There is no first class fare between Patchway and Bristol Temple Meads, and;
3) The old 1.5 multiplier has been officially abolished

Interestingly, byelaw 19, unlike byelaws 17 and 18, does not contain a formal exception for "no purchase facilities available", meaning that it is arguable that, on weekdays at least, a passenger boarding at Patchway cannot lawfully travel in first class without some form of valid first class ticket (perhaps to a subsequent station), or the permission of the guard.

On Saturdays, where XC offer 'Weekend First' on a 'please sit in first class and wait to be upgraded' basis, I'm not even sure a byelaw 19 prosecution could succeed.

In the case of a fare evasion prosecution, the prosecution would presumably have to demonstrate which fare exactly was "his fare" within the meaning of the RRA, which could be problematic in a case such as this where a passenger was willing to pay the first class fare, whatever it was, albeit that, on weekends, it could be argued that the fare evaded would be the standard class fare plus the advertised £5 upgrade.
 

Starmill

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Hi, isn’t it Double the fare or £20? Couldn’t they just hand out twenty pounds? :)
No. Penalty Fares are invalid if they are not calculated for the exactly correct amount. A Penalty Fare for an incorrect amount can be successfully appealed on that basis. Issuing a £20 Penalty Fare unless that is exactly correct is not permitted.

If there is no specific fare then it'd be £20.
Which is nothing more than something you just made up because you don't know the answer.

Not that this means a Penalty Fare couldn't be issued if you are using First Class with a Standard Class ticket and all of the other conditions for issuing a PF are met.
 

TheAdelante

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No. Penalty Fares are invalid if they are not calculated for the exactly correct amount. A Penalty Fare for an incorrect amount can be successfully appealed on that basis.
Oh. I see. Thank you for clarifying!
R :)
 

Starmill

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Pretty sure a magistrate would struggle to be able to deliver a guilty verdict if of the passenger made an effort to buy a first class ticket but couldn't....
I agree, it would be an interesting case to test in court...

I once witnessed an interesting situation where a customer wanted to travel in First Class from York to Uttoxeter. There is no fare.

In general if there is no fare available, the TSA suggests that the customer and the retailer should come to an agreement as to what the cheapest appropriate tickets are (or something like that I think).
 
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