Northern: What will be left after their new trains are delivered?

D365 · 27 Feb 2018

You’d have to ask Porterbrook, they were the ones who were seemingly keen to remove them.

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 27 Feb 2018

td97 said:
Would it be possible for Northern to keep their 323's and maybe acquire the soon-to-be off-lease ones from WMT? IMO they are a better train than the 319's, and 5 years younger.

Assuming South Wales does go the way of the trams, I would not be in the slightest bit surprised to see this happen.

notlob.divad · 27 Feb 2018

td97 said:
Would it be possible for Northern to keep their 323's and maybe acquire the soon-to-be off-lease ones from WMT? IMO they are a better train than the 319's, and 5 years younger.

Personally I think that is entirely dependent upon the success or otherwise or the flex program. If it is successful it would be in Porterbrook, the DfT and arguably Northern's interest for 319s to be converted and the 323's head to Northern to replace them.

Andyh82 · 27 Feb 2018

ainsworth74 said:
There are only a handful that have had any work done and I believe those that have are just getting an intermediate stage of work done (mostly around compliance for the 2020 deadline).

Am I right in thinking they are way behind.

In the launch publicity of key dates they said the refurbishments would take place 2016-2018.

I’m also not convinced the new trains will be enough,once all the people who are put off by pacers start travelling by train, I don’t understand why they are losing the 153s when they could be permanently formed into maybe 3 car 155s.

D365 · 27 Feb 2018

notlob.divad said:
Personally I think that is entirely dependent upon the success or otherwise or the flex program. If it is successful it would be in Porterbrook, the DfT and arguably Northern's interest for 319s to be converted and the 323's head to Northern to replace them.

Eh? Isn’t the point that Northern keep the Class 769 conversions?

Domh245 · 27 Feb 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Assuming South Wales does go the way of the trams, I would not be in the slightest bit surprised to see this happen.

I would be surprised. Beginning to withdraw a fleet of PRM compliant vehicles for some non PRM-compliant vehicles when the deadline will be just over a year away would seem pretty bonkers to me. Perhaps as a slightly longer term thing, keeping the 319s and the 331s for a period and slowly reintroducing 323s once they'd been PRMed it could work

notlob.divad · 27 Feb 2018

D365 said:
Eh? Isn’t the point that Northern keep the Class 769 conversions?

Yes, but the point is, if the flex program is successful, and it is in dft interest for more to provide more bi-mode / DMU capacity, particularly in line with a no straight diesel policy by 20xx it would be in Porterbrook's interest to continue modifying the 319s with a complete proven design etc rather than redesign work for another class. So getting the fleet back from Northern and giving them the 323 EMUs would be good business sense all round.

If it is really successful, you may even find northern take on more of the flex units as well so they can retire some of the worst of the DMU rust buckets.

I am not saying it will definitely happen, but it is the only scenario where I can see all parties (DfT, porterbrook and Northern) going for it.

D365 · 27 Feb 2018

You think Porterbrook will be able to sell 86 769s to other operators?

Don’t forget WMT will be offloading their 319s when their Aventras arrive.

323235 · 27 Feb 2018

D365 said:
You’d have to ask Porterbrook, they were the ones who were seemingly keen to remove them.

Porterbrook preferred the idea of the 323s to be based at one operator / one home depot (which I agree with as the Northern units do not appear to be well maintained) and envisaged a need for more stock (ie 323s) on the cross-city, which I think the 323s are fantastic on.

The franchise bidder and DfT had other ideas!

Rail Blues · 27 Feb 2018

323235 said:
Porterbrook preferred the idea of the 323s to be based at one operator / one home depot (which I agree with as the Northern units do not appear to be well maintained) and envisaged a need for more stock (ie 323s) on the cross-city, which I think the 323s are fantastic on.

The franchise bidder and DfT had other ideas!

Yes, they're pretty ideal for the cross city line. I assumed that given Porterbrook's desire to have all the 323s with the same operator, that some of the Northern 323s would find their way onto the electrified Chase Line.

That said, I can't muster up any sympathy for Porterbrook's predicament given that rolling stock shortages have allowed them to charge inflated fees for leasing ageing rolling stock they acquired on the cheap at privatisation.

61653 HTAFC · 28 Feb 2018

Rail Blues said:
Yes, they're pretty ideal for the cross city line. I assumed that given Porterbrook's desire to have all the 323s with the same operator, that some of the Northern 323s would find their way onto the electrified Chase Line.

That said, I can't muster up any sympathy for Porterbrook's predicament given that rolling stock shortages have allowed them to charge inflated fees for leasing ageing rolling stock they acquired on the cheap at privatisation.

I'm fully with you on having little sympathy for Porterbrook on this, for the reasons you cite. However it would be a shame if the excellent, Yorkshire-born (even if it was Leeds!

) 323s were a casualty of the poor business decisions of their adoptive parents!*

I'd certainly welcome them at Northern in place of 319s, especially if they came to Leeds in place of 331s. Now hear me out, this isn't just about blind Yorkshire patriotism! One of my concerns over using 331s as crowd-busters is that their interiors (as planned, with tables etc.) are not going to be ideal for the peak-hour loadings on Airedale. This seems counter-intuitive when contrasted with the 333s having seats removed from the driving cars to allow more standing!

*= Gordon Bennett! I'm personifying units now... o_O

Need to cut back on the ale!

Pete_uk · 28 Feb 2018

Are the ex BR units being totally gutted and rebuilt internally or are things like the seats staying? The 150's would be nice with the right seating but you would loose seats which you would not want to do what with the big convenience being put in.

Allwinter_Kit · 28 Feb 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
One of my concerns over using 331s as crowd-busters is that their interiors (as planned, with tables etc.) are not going to be ideal for the peak-hour loadings on Airedale. This seems counter-intuitive when contrasted with the 333s having seats removed from the driving cars to allow more standing!

I imagine the defence against this is that 2x3car 331 will have a higher capacity overall than the current 1x4car 333 - although I haven't seen any works on any Airedale platforms yet to make them long enough for such a thing!

43096 · 28 Feb 2018

Rail Blues said:
That said, I can't muster up any sympathy for Porterbrook's predicament given that rolling stock shortages have allowed them to charge inflated fees for leasing ageing rolling stock they acquired on the cheap at privatisation.

That old chestnut, as pedalled by people who don’t understand the reality. As a starting point I would suggest you go and read the 2009 Competition Commission inquiry into the ROSCOs: http://webarchive.nationalarchives....org.uk//rep_pub/reports/2009/fulltext/546.pdf

physics34 · 28 Feb 2018

Rail Blues said:
That sets the bar pretty low. I don't expect every route to be run with brand new rolling stock, but acquiring cl 150s and 155s is hardly cause for mass celebration.

The bar is set pretty low all the time though. Personally i would be looking at a DMU cascade starting with replacing the meridians and voyagers with IEPs, with the meridians and voyagers taking over 158 routes with the 158s then demoted to more local routes allowing for 150 replacement

YorkshireBear · 28 Feb 2018

Meridians and Voyagers are not suitable for 158 routes, and 158s are not that suitable for many 150 routes.

43096 · 28 Feb 2018

YorkshireBear said:
Meridians and Voyagers are not suitable for 158 routes, and 158s are not that suitable for many 150 routes.

And Japanese Not-Wireds are not suitable to replace Meridians and Voyagers - they don't have the performance on diesel.

YorkshireBear · 28 Feb 2018

43096 said:
And Japanese Not-Wireds are not suitable to replace Meridians and Voyagers - they don't have the performance on diesel.

Indeed! Couldn't agree more. Should have pointed that out too. Unless they do an actual diesel only version... But i do not see that happening anytime soon.

D365 · 28 Feb 2018

43096 said:
And [802s??] are not suitable to replace Meridians and Voyagers - they don't have the performance on diesel.

Most of the unelectrified XC route length doesn’t need Voyager performance.

YorkshireBear · 28 Feb 2018

D365 said:
Most of the unelectrified XC route length doesn’t need Voyager performance.

Hmm I would suggest that Leeds - Exeter does. It certainly doesn't want the, as reported, sluggish diesel for that length.

ainsworth74 · 28 Feb 2018

Struggling to see exactly what Voyager performance on the CrossCountry Core has to do with Northern's residual fleet make up perhaps it could be taken to another thread

47434 · 6 Mar 2018

Interesting to see an ex-Scotrail 158 with a near perfect internal layout for some of their duties (S&C). The 170's appear to be on the move today. Are these just extras for now or will we see some Pacers disappear?

175001 · 6 Mar 2018

Will be used for traction training in preparation forthe May timetable

xotGD · 6 Mar 2018

47434 said:
Interesting to see an ex-Scotrail 158 with a near perfect internal layout for some of their duties (S&C). The 170's appear to be on the move today. Are these just extras for now or will we see some Pacers disappear?

The downside is that more people had to stand on the 18.06 off Leeds last night. Swings and roundabouts.

dlj83 · 6 Mar 2018

Could the Pacers not going to run on the Uckfield line as a peak time shuttle?

Bornin1980s · 6 Mar 2018

xotGD said:
The downside is that more people had to stand on the 18.06 off Leeds last night. Swings and roundabouts.

Why the shortage of seats?

Chester1 · 7 Mar 2018

47434 said:
Interesting to see an ex-Scotrail 158 with a near perfect internal layout for some of their duties (S&C). The 170's appear to be on the move today. Are these just extras for now or will we see some Pacers disappear?

First batch to go will be 5 x 2 car 144s on 15th September according to Modern Railways. All 144s to go by end of March 2019. 142s to go roughly monthly from October 2018 to October 2019. I doubt the first will be sent off lease on time unless Manchester to Preston electrification finishes by September. My personal view is that the 144s will probably end up in South Wales until December 2019 to cover 150s being sent for PRM-TSI upgrade on masse.

xotGD · 7 Mar 2018

Bornin1980s said:
Why the shortage of seats?

Different internal layout in the ex-Scotrail unit: more tables, fewer seats.

xotGD · 7 Mar 2018

Chester1 said:
First batch to go will be 5 x 2 car 144s on 15th September according to Modern Railways. All 144s to go by end of March 2019. 142s to go roughly monthly from October 2018 to October 2019. I doubt the first will be sent off lease on time unless Manchester to Preston electrification finishes by September. My personal view is that the 144s will probably end up in South Wales until December 2019 to cover 150s being sent for PRM-TSI upgrade on masse.

Ditching 144s with 2+2 seating ahead of ex-Merseyrail 142s with their seats-from-satan 3+2 or 142s with the original bus seats doesn't seem to be especially passenger-focussed.

61653 HTAFC · 7 Mar 2018

xotGD said:
Ditching 144s with 2+2 seating ahead of ex-Merseyrail 142s with their seats-from-satan 3+2 or 142s with the original bus seats doesn't seem to be especially passenger-focussed.

Agreed, but if the 144s do have a short-term future in Wales then it makes sense in a national context. Then again, The Valleys already have 142s so even if 143-144 conversion training is simple, it's still more than the nothing that would be needed for 142s. The 144s are a smaller fleet overall and with a smaller operating area though, so it makes sense to keep the more numerous fleet.

I'd expect 144012 to be among the first to go due to being non-standard, though if they're off to Cardiff that'd be an issue there too.

Northern: What will be left after their new trains are delivered?

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member