Refusal to Allow use of Staff Travel Card before 09:30 at Kings Cross

Mutant Lemming · 16 Mar 2018

My partner holds a Spouse Staff Travel card (endorsement 11 national rail only) and attempted to travel from Kings Cross to Harrogate with box correctly dated on Tuesday only to be told (rather gleefully by a lady on the barrier) that she could not travel before 09:30 with it. I have scoured the rules and restrictions and apart from advisories (which I believe are not mandatory) and reservation bars, the relevant page for VTEC shows no restrictions for use from Kings Cross. I know that facilities can be rescinded on occasion but I have not come across anything that should have prevented her from travelling prior to 09:30 on a Tuesday. Are there occasions that such restrictions occur or is the lady on the barrier incorrect in her assumption ?

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AndrewE · 16 Mar 2018

Mutant Lemming said:
My partner holds a Spouse Staff Travel card (endorsement 11 national rail only) and attempted to travel from Kings Cross to Harrogate with box correctly dated on Tuesday only to be told (rather gleefully by a lady on the barrier) that she could not travel before 09:30 with it. I have scoured the rules and restrictions and apart from advisories (which I believe are not mandatory) and reservation bars, the relevant page for VTEC shows no restrictions for use from Kings Cross. I know that facilities can be rescinded on occasion but I have not come across anything that should have prevented her from travelling prior to 09:30 on a Tuesday. Are there occasions that such restrictions occur or is the lady on the barrier incorrect in her assumption ?

Make a formal complaint.
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/f...t/RST_Winter_2017-18_Restrictions_Booklet.pdf
says

Virgin Trains East Coast: There are no restrictions to users of free and privilege rate travel facilities on Virgin Trains East Coast services. However please observe the following:...

It's part of your pay and no-one should have a day ruined by an arbitrary imposition of some new rule. Follow it up through your union (or copy them in straight away.)

Mutant Lemming · 16 Mar 2018

I must admit I would have challenged it but my partner is more patient than I am and just went and had a coffee till 09:30. I know they can bar certain trains on occasion (Hull trains for instance) but I have now found out that she was prevented from accessing the platforms without even stating where she intended to go. I believe you are right in saying it does need taking further. Shows it's not just the ordinary punters who have to suffer poor training of staff with regards to ticket validities.

Hadders · 16 Mar 2018

VTEC staff manning the barriers are poorly trained. I was denied access during the evening Peak with a perfectly valid Off peak ticket. I requested a manager who even claimed that the barriers are programmed to recognise whether every ticket is valid or not.

This was witnessed by several forum members.

I complained to VTEC whose response was a load of wibble. A letter to David Horne, despite an aknowledgement, didn’t even get a response.

Gerald Fiennes · 17 Mar 2018

Sounds like the barrier staff misrecognised the card, as certainly was valid. At Kings X, you at least have a choice of barrier lines to have debates with (another set upstairs!)

Mutant Lemming · 17 Mar 2018

Am intending to head North out of Kings Cross early on a weekday quite soon so will be able to have the 'discussion' myself (armed with page 15 of the link kindly placed by AndrewE above and a determination to take things a bit further).

RJ · 17 Mar 2018

Unfortunately one element of rail travel is encountering staff who don't know what they are talking about. If you don't want to be overcharged, or have your travel plans ruined, you have to be prepared to stand your ground! No, some staff don't like being challenged but if you're happy to pay, or wait just to spare their feelings then fair play to you.

It's one of those things in life where expectations can't set as high as you think is reasonable.

TUC · 17 Mar 2018

RJ said:
Unfortunately one element of rail travel is encountering staff who don't know what they are talking about. If you don't want to be overcharged, or have your travel plans ruined, you have to be prepared to stand your ground! No, some staff don't like being challenged but if you're happy to pay, or wait just to spare their feelings then fair play to you.

It's one of those things in life where expectations can't set as high as you think is reasonable.

Except for very obscure off-normal route tickets I think it's an entirely reasonable customer expectations for staff to be well informed and, in this day and age, for them to look up queries where necessary. It's for TOCs and staff to raise their game, not for customers to lower theirs.

RJ · 17 Mar 2018

TUC said:
Except for very obscure off-normal route tickets I think it's an entirely reasonable customer expectations for staff to be well informed and, in this day and age, for them to look up queries where necessary. It's for TOCs and staff to raise their game, not for customers to lower theirs.

That's not the way the railways see it and things will probably never change.

Even two weeks ago, I was disgusted to discover that a Disabled Freedom Pass holder was being denied access to the London Overground prior to 09:30, because multiple members of TOC staff at the station were adamant it wasn't valid on LO at that time. The consequence being that passenger had to use local buses, quadrupling their journey time. I ensured the Freedom Pass validity was promptly circulated in writing to everyone who works that gateline. Magically, the problem disappeared. I'm seriously not cool with people being treated like that, especially those with heightened vulnerabilities.

Rubbish like this goes on on a daily basis and begs the question of what is going on with training and getting staff used to undertaking very basic research to avoid this sort of thing happening.

Mutant Lemming · 17 Mar 2018

RJ said:
That's not the way the railways see it and things will probably never change.

Even two weeks ago, I was disgusted to discover that a Disabled Freedom Pass holder was being denied access to the London Overground prior to 09:30, because multiple members of TOC staff at the station were adamant it wasn't valid on LO at that time. The consequence being that passenger had to use local buses, quadrupling their journey time. I ensured the Freedom Pass validity was promptly circulated in writing to everyone who works that gateline. Magically, the problem disappeared. I'm seriously not cool with people being treated like that, especially those with heightened vulnerabilities.

Rubbish like this goes on on a daily basis and begs the question of what is going on with training and getting staff used to undertaking very basic research to avoid this sort of thing happening.

Couldn't agree more but with the current mantra being 'More for Less' I can only see things worsening especially when they induce a dog eat dog mentality among staff.

yorkie · 17 Mar 2018

TUC said:
Except for very obscure off-normal route tickets I think it's an entirely reasonable customer expectations for staff to be well informed and, in this day and age, for them to look up queries where necessary. It's for TOCs and staff to raise their game, not for customers to lower theirs.

True; it should be a reasonable expectation.

But it is no longer my expectation as I know of so many instances when incorrect information has been banded about, sometimes accompanied by comments such as "I've done this job for 13 years".

I also witnessed the occasion when staff at Kings Cross initially denied Hadders access to his train, and only relented at the last moment. They made up all sorts of lies, such as claiming the gates can read the electronic ticket restriction applicable to the ticket. If that claim was true, the barrier would have accepted the ticket! I had the restriction text available to show on my mobile phone. They refused to look. That is the sort of individuals we are dealing with. Totally unfit for a customer-facing role, yet they are somehow in such a position. Clearly the company has insufficient/inadequate safeguards in place.

@Mutant Lemming - Let us know what VTEC say. If they do not give you a good response, I know how you can escalate the matter.

tony6499 · 27 Mar 2018

Went through the barriers last week to catch the 0833 to Leeds and had no problems so it is not all the staff there, just one misguided member of staff hopefully

falcon · 29 Mar 2018

Under British Rail ticket checking staff had training on tickets for two weeks and then had to pass an exam to be allowed to do the job. Since privatisation the training is one day that's it.

mmh · 29 Mar 2018

RJ said:
That's not the way the railways see it and things will probably never change.

Even two weeks ago, I was disgusted to discover that a Disabled Freedom Pass holder was being denied access to the London Overground prior to 09:30, because multiple members of TOC staff at the station were adamant it wasn't valid on LO at that time. The consequence being that passenger had to use local buses, quadrupling their journey time. I ensured the Freedom Pass validity was promptly circulated in writing to everyone who works that gateline. Magically, the problem disappeared. I'm seriously not cool with people being treated like that, especially those with heightened vulnerabilities.

Rubbish like this goes on on a daily basis and begs the question of what is going on with training and getting staff used to undertaking very basic research to avoid this sort of thing happening.

My experience of (new) London Overground barrier staff is poor (I do know a couple who were TUPEd from Southern though and they're excellent) - twice I've been refused entry with a perfectly valid long distance off-peak ticket with a cross-London connection because it was before 09:30, they refused to accept it was valid and the off-peak restriction applied to the Virgin part of the journey, not theirs, even when shown my seat reservations proving that an off-peak ticket had been sold to travel at that time.

Both times I ended up having to pay again to get to London, so I avoid doing those journeys now as I know I'll end up over-paying.

Hadders · 29 Mar 2018

mmh said:
My experience of (new) London Overground barrier staff is poor (I do know a couple who were TUPEd from Southern though and they're excellent) - twice I've been refused entry with a perfectly valid long distance off-peak ticket with a cross-London connection because it was before 09:30, they refused to accept it was valid and the off-peak restriction applied to the Virgin part of the journey, not theirs, even when shown my seat reservations proving that an off-peak ticket had been sold to travel at that time.

Both times I ended up having to pay again to get to London, so I avoid doing those journeys now as I know I'll end up over-paying.

I do hope you made a complaint about this. It’s absolutely disgraceful that you were denied travel in such circumstances.

I’d have been seeking more than a refund of the additional fare paid as well as an assurance that appropriate training would be given to staff.

sarahj · 3 Apr 2018

When I came out of ticket training school after 4 days i knew how to sell tickets on an advantix including selling extensions and upgrades, (but not the rules) print an itinerary, deal with transport tokens (never seen one) and warrants. I did not learn B3 codes, off peak ticket allowances, correct routing on tickets, rules on extensions and upgrades and so on. What I've learned over the years, including from here, I've put into practice and told others, but every few months another set of folks come along from the courses and spout the same old drivel. I had a go at someone in the mess room bragging about all these upgrades they had sold on a certain train, but they don't get it.

bramling · 3 Apr 2018

mmh said:
My experience of (new) London Overground barrier staff is poor (I do know a couple who were TUPEd from Southern though and they're excellent) - twice I've been refused entry with a perfectly valid long distance off-peak ticket with a cross-London connection because it was before 09:30, they refused to accept it was valid and the off-peak restriction applied to the Virgin part of the journey, not theirs, even when shown my seat reservations proving that an off-peak ticket had been sold to travel at that time.

Both times I ended up having to pay again to get to London, so I avoid doing those journeys now as I know I'll end up over-paying.

Sounds about right for London Overground - some of the most poorly trained station staff anywhere on the railway IME. They really do just seem to be glorified security guards, which is fine but if so they shouldn't then be involved with "railway" matters like ticketing.

tsr · 3 Apr 2018

sarahj said:
When I came out of ticket training school after 4 days i knew how to sell tickets on an advantix including selling extensions and upgrades, (but not the rules) print an itinerary, deal with transport tokens (never seen one) and warrants. I did not learn B3 codes, off peak ticket allowances, correct routing on tickets, rules on extensions and upgrades and so on. What I've learned over the years, including from here, I've put into practice and told others, but every few months another set of folks come along from the courses and spout the same old drivel. I had a go at someone in the mess room bragging about all these upgrades they had sold on a certain train, but they don't get it.

Any news of recent shortfalls in training would surprise me a little, because a few years back the GTR course was upgraded significantly - at least an extra day of training (sometimes more) and about a day and a half spent on ticket time restrictions and railcard restrictions alone. (Yes, transport tokens were still covered - I can't say I've ever seen one either, nor has anyone I've ever spoken to.)

I do know some crew who had poorer training - they were evidently given very little revenue knowledge and a great sense of superiority - sadly there are still a few around, but for the most part it's died out.

That being said, I can't say I know of anybody in the last decade or so who has learnt anything about permitted routes, apart from the blindingly obvious. Mention the Routeing Guide in a Southern messroom and you'd definitely get a load of blank faces (if anyone was talking about anything like that in the first place!).

Railguy1 · 5 Apr 2018

yorkie said:
True; it should be a reasonable expectation.

But it is no longer my expectation as I know of so many instances when incorrect information has been banded about, sometimes accompanied by comments such as "I've done this job for 13 years".

I also witnessed the occasion when staff at Kings Cross initially denied Hadders access to his train, and only relented at the last moment. They made up all sorts of lies, such as claiming the gates can read the electronic ticket restriction applicable to the ticket. If that claim was true, the barrier would have accepted the ticket! I had the restriction text available to show on my mobile phone. They refused to look. That is the sort of individuals we are dealing with. Totally unfit for a customer-facing role, yet they are somehow in such a position. Clearly the company has insufficient/inadequate safeguards in place.

@Mutant Lemming - Let us know what VTEC say. If they do not give you a good response, I know how you can escalate the matter.

Will it ever be possible in the future to have a system where if an employee is unsure, they can look up the ticket information on a tablet/ phone device and the appropriate restrictions listed clearly? It doesn't seem like too difficult to implement, at least from my (the customer) perspective, given that the information should already be somewhere...

sarahj · 5 Apr 2018

tsr said:
Any news of recent shortfalls in training would surprise me a little, because a few years back the GTR course was upgraded significantly - at least an extra day of training (sometimes more) and about a day and a half spent on ticket time restrictions and railcard restrictions alone. (Yes, transport tokens were still covered - I can't say I've ever seen one either, nor has anyone I've ever spoken to.)

I do know some crew who had poorer training - they were evidently given very little revenue knowledge and a great sense of superiority - sadly there are still a few around, but for the most part it's died out.

That being said, I can't say I know of anybody in the last decade or so who has learnt anything about permitted routes, apart from the blindingly obvious. Mention the Routeing Guide in a Southern messroom and you'd definitely get a load of blank faces (if anyone was talking about anything like that in the first place!).

The story a driver told me yesterday about passing on a Gatex up to Victoria to work a train down and who met someone whose horse was so high would almost melt this forum.

AlterEgo · 5 Apr 2018

Railguy1 said:
Will it ever be possible in the future to have a system where if an employee is unsure, they can look up the ticket information on a tablet/ phone device and the appropriate restrictions listed clearly? It doesn't seem like too difficult to implement, at least from my (the customer) perspective, given that the information should already be somewhere...

There already is a easy way to do this.

Most tickets now say "...go to nationalrail.co.uk/2c" (substitute 2-character restriction code as applicable), where, lo and behold, the restriction text is displayed.

It is wholly unacceptable that staff are either unable (due to a lack of mobile devices) or unwilling to do this. It's scandalously poor. I can't think of another industry where this institutionalised ignorance would pass.

Bletchleyite · 5 Apr 2018

AlterEgo said:
There already is a easy way to do this.

Most tickets now say "...go to nationalrail.co.uk/2c" (substitute 2-character restriction code as applicable), where, lo and behold, the restriction text is displayed.

It is wholly unacceptable that staff are either unable (due to a lack of mobile devices) or unwilling to do this. It's scandalously poor. I can't think of another industry where this institutionalised ignorance would pass.

Completely agreed.

A sensible thing would be to outfit barrier staff with handheld devices and printers of the nature of those used to print bog-roll tickets. If a customer disputes the opinion of the staff on a restriction, they then MUST look it up on the device and provide the restriction printed out to the customer as confirmation that travel was denied and why. That could then be taken up later if necessary and avoids one word against another.

This could fit alongside the other issue of when authority to travel has been provided, as the same system could issue a paper form of authority to travel (i.e. a zero fare ticket) with the bounds of the authority in writing for later challenge if appropriate.

mallard · 5 Apr 2018

At the end of the day, refusing the use of valid tickets brings in extra revenue for the operator. Therefore, until (unless) an independent regulator decides to tackle the issue, there is absolutely no incentive* for anything to change.

The fact that ticket restrictions (and railway rules in general) are far too complex (not to mention the heavy anti-consumer design) for any normal member of the public (or even most railway staff, whether on revenue duties or not) to understand means that in most cases passengers have little choice but to trust the "expertise" of staff and will not know when they're being defrauded.

Lets not pretend that this sort of problem is the result of "a few bad apples" or the occasional "poorly trained" staff member. Staff are exactly as well-trained as their employer wants them to be. Using these methods to increase revenue is an industry-wide "initiative" which is only going to get worse until it stops making business sense.

* An operator denying the use of obviously valid tickets to large numbers of people may in some cases generate bad press which might slightly lower the passenger numbers and reduce revenue, but this is very indirect and unlikely.

PHILIPE · 5 Apr 2018

Some years ago I showed my Travel Pass to some outsourced chap checking tickets at the gate and he didn't even know what it was.

tsr · 7 Apr 2018

sarahj said:
The story a driver told me yesterday about passing on a Gatex up to Victoria to work a train down and who met someone whose horse was so high would almost melt this forum.

Sounds “amusing”. You’ll have to PM me...

Railguy1 said:
Will it ever be possible in the future to have a system where if an employee is unsure, they can look up the ticket information on a tablet/ phone device and the appropriate restrictions listed clearly? It doesn't seem like too difficult to implement, at least from my (the customer) perspective, given that the information should already be somewhere...

You can already do that on most, if not all (and I hope it is all!) the “Avantix replacement” ticket issuing devices. And, as above, on the public National Rail website. There’s really no excuse!

6Gman · 7 Apr 2018

PHILIPE said:
Some years ago I showed my Travel Pass to some outsourced chap checking tickets at the gate and he didn't even know what it was.

My PT Card with a correctly completed "box" was a total mystery to a guy on the barrier at Kentish Town.

Bill EWS · 7 Apr 2018

There was always a restriction on the early train from KX To Aberdeen. We always travelled on the 12.00 noon.

Mag_seven · 7 Apr 2018

6Gman said:
My PT Card with a correctly completed "box" was a total mystery to a guy on the barrier at Kentish Town.

Don't get me started on FIP Boxes that are valid for 48 hours - the puzzled looks you get from some continental rail staff on the second day of a valid dated box!

greyman42 · 7 Apr 2018

I had a member of staff ask for a closer look at my priv as I was going through a barrier at Farringdon. He said he had never seen one before so I explained to him what it was and went on my way.

tsr · 7 Apr 2018

Bill EWS said:
There was always a restriction on the early train from KX To Aberdeen. We always travelled on the 12.00 noon.

I've used the 1000 King's Cross - Aberdeen several times recently on a PRIV ticket with absolutely no issues whatsoever.

Either the relevant people had forgotten about any restriction, or don't care any more! On at least one occasion, I explained to the guard that I needed a ticket before departure, and they were happy to oblige once the train was on the move.

For what it's worth, I have recently always managed to get an unreserved seat without issue, and there were plenty more to go round if you walked through the whole train.

Refusal to Allow use of Staff Travel Card before 09:30 at Kings Cross

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