According to RTT there has only been one southbound cancellation at Heaton Chapel this morning, that being of the 0824 Piccadilly - Hazel Grove. Some of the Alderley Edge trains have run seriously late (20-30 mins), but I can't find a greater than 46 minute gap between successive services.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Northern's Problems in the North West
- Thread starter swanhill41
- Start date
- Status
According to RTT there has only been one southbound cancellation at Heaton Chapel this morning, that being of the 0824 Piccadilly - Hazel Grove. Some of the Alderley Edge trains have run seriously late (20-30 mins), but I can't find a greater than 46 minute gap between successive services.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I think he's referring to the service from Wigan North Western and Bolton to Manchester and stated Heaton Chapel as where a train on a Wigan-Alderley Edge service was at the time of posting.
Oh dear. BBC News at One just showed a half empty 'rush hour' Thameslink train and a Thameslink passenger complaining that their train was 15 minutes late and glossed over Northern saying they don't have enough 'properly trained drivers.'
Maybe northern should recruit quicker their introducing all these new trains by 2020 with no one to drive them.
Eccles1983
On Moderation
- Joined
- 4 Sep 2016
- Messages
- 841
You cant keep the numbers of annual leave low artifically.
Its set 12mths in advance and you woulf be robbing peter to pay paul.
And to be fair, unless a bumper offer comes in I cant see many drivers jumping through hoops to take RDW. After the company has continually levelled the blame at drivers doors the goodwill has eroded.
Not to mention the companys unwillingness to budge on harminsation and an incident that happened with ex tpe drivers which was of the companys doing.
Northern need to chew on some humble pie, and make amends.
td97
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2017
- Messages
- 1,299
Do they have any option to contract in drivers from other TOCs, freight, or even retired drivers?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
An emergency timetable should already have been done.
Meanwhile, I strongly encourage everyone to ensure they claim their Delay Repay, if due, and to claim it in cash, not to accept any form of voucher.
Northern need a massive whack for this, and unusually the passengers are in a very good position to deliver it and keep the spoils too!
I have submitted 14 requests over a 4 / 5 week period, before deciding to start driving to work. I am yet to receive a single payment as yet. This is a marked increase on time taken.
i have had one come back with a spurious reason for rejection, which i raised as an official complaint and resubmitted. Via social media there are numerous examples of claims being rejected on vague grounds. I cannot help to think Arriva are aiming to obfuscate to deliberately reduce the level of successful pay outs.
I think there was a driver in every cab (4 Car) of the heavily delayed 11.34 from Manchester Oxford Road to Blackpool. Ran fast to Preston.
Glad we got that one as after the 12.34 looks like no Northern service has left Manchester for Preston.
I would assume there is going to be some pretty substantial delay repay for people connecting at Preston for VTWC services
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I knew VTWC's outrageous Anytime fares would come in useful some time. A full refund of a First Anytime Single or two should administer a suitable whack.
They should be at the end of the recruitment drive, with staff pretty much trained
So, things Northern Rail cannot do:
1. Run the trains they're meant to run
2. Provide passengers with any information at all about what services they will and won't be running
3. Arrange replacement buses
4. Deal with delay repay claims fairly or properly.
In a matter of weeks, they have undone more than a decade's work to try and get people out of their cars and into trains in the north of England. WELL DONE, NORTHERN RAIL.
Not that they'll care, or be affected in the slightest. Instead, cosseted by the income guaranteed by the public purse, they have been every bit as arrogant, incompetent and dishonest as the politicians and civil servants who employed them, and who will make sure they carry on sucking at the teat of the state, no matter how bad the non-service they provide might be.
1. Run the trains they're meant to run
2. Provide passengers with any information at all about what services they will and won't be running
3. Arrange replacement buses
4. Deal with delay repay claims fairly or properly.
In a matter of weeks, they have undone more than a decade's work to try and get people out of their cars and into trains in the north of England. WELL DONE, NORTHERN RAIL.
Not that they'll care, or be affected in the slightest. Instead, cosseted by the income guaranteed by the public purse, they have been every bit as arrogant, incompetent and dishonest as the politicians and civil servants who employed them, and who will make sure they carry on sucking at the teat of the state, no matter how bad the non-service they provide might be.
Lemmy99uk
Member
- Joined
- 5 May 2015
- Messages
- 459
It’s worth mentioning, and in the interests of balance, that the much enhanced Cumbrian Coast timetable seems to be running without a hitch, as was yesterday’s new Sunday services.
The senior management team in charge of Lancashire will be the same team that cover Cumbria except in the latter they have managed a huge increase in train crew along with the associated training to ensure the have sufficient resources.
It does give some credence to the view that Arriva have been dealt an unplayable hand in Lancs.
The senior management team in charge of Lancashire will be the same team that cover Cumbria except in the latter they have managed a huge increase in train crew along with the associated training to ensure the have sufficient resources.
It does give some credence to the view that Arriva have been dealt an unplayable hand in Lancs.
The solution is to make sure that training, new traction, extra services, etc do not come in one big lump but as a continuous trickle. Then you make sure you have your standard full complement of stuff + plus the extra you need to cover stuff over and above day-to-day. This extra can then be fairly small, but it is continuously employed. Then the only overtime you need is to cover emergency situations; sickness, complete disruption, etc.
The fact that so many big projects and changes are going on at once is purely down to poor management.
Robertj21a
On Moderation
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 7,520
It's a shame that you have to spend so much of your time ranting, with wild accusations. There's probably some good hard facts in there somewhere but, to me, it just comes over as a personal interpretation/rant of what you believe is happening.
Jimmy Foster
Member
- Joined
- 18 May 2018
- Messages
- 19
If I remember rightly Delay/Repay is heavily, heavily regulated and there is no way the TOC could do anything dodgy to avoid paying - they may make mistakes of course!!!
However then having an instructor released to brief or train 1 or 2 other drivers is far less productive than having an instructor released to brief or train several
besides the timescales do not work for trickle training crew , if they had only released 1 or 2 drivers a day from each depot the resumption of a full meaningful service on the line would take months .
same when the new trains turn up . unfortunately there simply wont be a reasonable timescale to trickle train all the relevant crew .
So many big projects at once is not solely just down to decisions made by managers at Northern , its Network rail and the DFT who make those decisions .
It might be heavily regulated , but to appeal and follow a process through to get the compensation takes effort and with every step of the process people will drop out and not bother making the effort .
It is fairly standard practice for organisations to refuse to compensate people when they are due it in the first instance safe in the knowledge that a diminishing proportion of those claiming compensation will follow the process through to the end . Its a fairly standard way of reducing what compensation you actually have to pay out . Of course I dont know for sure if this is what is going on here , it could just be that there are a number of people attempting invalid delay repay claims , or these could be mistakes we are hearing about .
Take the experience I had dealing with an insurance company , had I not followed my claim through and asked them for a final resolution so I could take the matter up with the ombudsman I would have ended up with a £10 high street shopping voucher(their first offer) . Because I took the effort to write a few letters and basically inform them that I was still not satisfied and wish to have the ombudsman review my complaint I ended up with a cheque for £250 which was equal to just under half the premium I had paid in the first place .
Robertj21a
On Moderation
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 7,520
As I said, there's a lot in there which is simply your personal view. It may be factual, or not. Sweeping statements about politicians and civil servants may be correct to you but they won't necessarily be to other people.
So, you can't actually point to any factual errors in what I have said, you just disagree with it for some other reason?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say if the timetable continues like this, particularly west of the Pennines, after today then Northern will go bust. Today was like something from British Rail and why the railways were practically abandoned in the first place. Notrhern's timetable is fundamentally flawed.
The problems as I see them:
1. The new timetable is too heavily weighted towards long distance routes rather than more flexible short distance, commuter routes that allow a degree of flexibility among staff. Most of the delays have stemmed from a shortage of train crew (i.e. them being in the wrong place thanks to delays) and which only proves this problem.
2. It seems more trains are being routed through Piccadilly platform 13/14 is worsening the bottleneck situation. Although you have less trains cutting across the throat of Piccadilly (such as the airport stoppers), it's just pushed the problem back to Oxford Road etc.
3. My train from Crewe to Liverpool pulled in at Piccadilly at 10 o'clock. One Scouser got on it. That was it. If Northern want to drive their bread and butter commuter passengers away then that's their problem - because they'll be ones who lose money as passengers move to cars or bikes. Do it at their peril and if the DfT insist on it then they should tell them where to go or renegotiate the franchise agreement.
I'm claiming a Delay Repay which I've never done before. I was not supportive of these timetables for the above reasons and Northern have to get the message that they have screwed up. This was not teething problems today - this was a timetable that clearly does not suit Northern's operations. They can bring in an emergency timetable but then they'd be in breach of their franchise agreement, TSR etc so what happens after that I don't know. Morale is clearly very low among Northern staff.
I feel sorry for those passengers who needed to get to Manchester Airport today - I have no doubt dozens will have missed their flights thanks to Northern Rail's incompetence and misplaced ambitions.
The problems as I see them:
1. The new timetable is too heavily weighted towards long distance routes rather than more flexible short distance, commuter routes that allow a degree of flexibility among staff. Most of the delays have stemmed from a shortage of train crew (i.e. them being in the wrong place thanks to delays) and which only proves this problem.
2. It seems more trains are being routed through Piccadilly platform 13/14 is worsening the bottleneck situation. Although you have less trains cutting across the throat of Piccadilly (such as the airport stoppers), it's just pushed the problem back to Oxford Road etc.
3. My train from Crewe to Liverpool pulled in at Piccadilly at 10 o'clock. One Scouser got on it. That was it. If Northern want to drive their bread and butter commuter passengers away then that's their problem - because they'll be ones who lose money as passengers move to cars or bikes. Do it at their peril and if the DfT insist on it then they should tell them where to go or renegotiate the franchise agreement.
I'm claiming a Delay Repay which I've never done before. I was not supportive of these timetables for the above reasons and Northern have to get the message that they have screwed up. This was not teething problems today - this was a timetable that clearly does not suit Northern's operations. They can bring in an emergency timetable but then they'd be in breach of their franchise agreement, TSR etc so what happens after that I don't know. Morale is clearly very low among Northern staff.
I feel sorry for those passengers who needed to get to Manchester Airport today - I have no doubt dozens will have missed their flights thanks to Northern Rail's incompetence and misplaced ambitions.
Can you give us an example of when a timetable change under BR resulted in the sort of chaos witnessed today ?
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
ChrisHogan
Member
- Joined
- 15 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 342
Southern Region recast circa 1967. The stuffing of too many trains into New Street c1990 that caused gridlock, and had to be undone.
Can confirm re July 67 on SE at any rate. Infrastructure (signalling not wiring) not able to cope with timetable. But no Twitter then.
northernchris
Established Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,509
The current situation with Northern is beyond defensible, however I think stripping Arriva of the franchise now would be wrong. They have created a mess, and now should be forced, as a minimum, to return things to the standards Serco/Abellio left the franchise in within a set time frame. Allowing them to walk away unscathed will just mean someone else has to pick up the mess. However I agree that the penalties are too lenient which is probably a major factor behind Northern allowing the RDW to expire.
I've been out and about today across West Yorkshire and have seen some good and mostly bad things across the network. There's clearly a number of factors at play here which has created this storm. Firstly, Network Rail have to take some responsibility as the timetables were mashed together in a hurry due to their failure to complete both Manchester-Preston and Preston-Blackpool on schedule. It will be impossible to say, but if today had launched with the proposed timetables it may have been a little more successful.
Obviously Northern have to accept the brunt of the blame due to their poor planning, and the way they have communicated this has been dire. They really need to raise their game here, get the message out explaining what has gone wrong, what is being done to improve and when this should be achieved by.
With a major timetable change like this teething problems were to be expected, and from my observations today Network Rail again have played a part in this. There's been some poor service regulation with some services being held in excess of 10 minutes for late trains to pass, and the fact TPE seem to be getting a lot of priority isn't helping Northern - one Selby service was held for 3 TPE services then let out just as a fourth was arriving. There's also been cases of trains arriving on time on different platforms but the announcements not going out until a few minutes later, so departures have been delayed whilst passengers transfer to the correct platform. Hopefully these are just teething problems but with some turnarounds now being quite tight Northern and Network Rail need to get this resolved to reduce delays to other services
I've also witnessed frontline staff at the receiving end of frustrations, one conductor having to face quite a large group of commuters who were unable to board a late and shortformed service. There's also been problems with the Leeds-Southport service - don't think any of these have run to time today and all evening peak (1620, 1720 and 1820 from Leeds) were cancelled.
It's disappointing Arriva have allowed this situation to happen, and to be honest I expected a lot better from them - they are generally quite a good transport provider
Lampshade
Established Member
Unfortunately that's the perception Northern have created of themselves, by themselves. Facts are irrelevant when people are stranded, students missing exams, people missing flights, receiving warnings for being late for work and so on.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Granted about the 1967 SR timetable , and not for lack of trying - there was immense research done before it on customer flows and capacity maximisation (as well as getting rid of some old chestnut services) - it was recovered fairly quickly thanks to some very quick off the mark local Station and Area Managers.
The huge difference is , it cost very little to implement - a turn back at Sidcup and not much else. Not like today's £7 Billion or so infrastructure schemes(not badly done TBF) , but with an unjoined up contractually driven "operating" function.....
theironroad
Established Member
My response was to a poster who said the entire service had collapsed, inferring all Northern's trains had collapsed. Perhaps before shouting your little want it would have been good to read the relevant post clearly.
I fully accept that some routes within Northern have had it a lot worse than others, and as a frequent user of trains both on and off duty, I fully appreciate how mass disruption affects people's lives. That is no reason to distort and take a very liberal interpretation to the facts though.
Regards,your suggestion that Northern lose the franchise with immediate effect. Great, so they will be stripped of it tomorrow. Do you think that by Northern losing the keys overnight, all the drivers will suddenly be route trained and all the other issues in expanding services in a complex railway will also disappear. So come Wednesday morning the 'New Pennine Railway Company' will take over and everything will be absolutely fine. I know it's good to rant and have an person or organisation to rant at, but really.....
If there is one thing that I’m bored of hearing, not here but everywhere, is demands that companies be stripped of their franchise.
We’d might as well issue every train company franchises that last 6 months as apparently almost all of them are worse than the previous one, despite the previous one also being hated, and that everything will be perfect if someone new took over.
We’d might as well issue every train company franchises that last 6 months as apparently almost all of them are worse than the previous one, despite the previous one also being hated, and that everything will be perfect if someone new took over.
- Status