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Northern's Problems in the North West

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alangla

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The whole 1 return journey a day over the Blackpool line for distant depots just seems bizarre. If this was managed the way any other industry would manage it, it would be a short turn the day before followed by a trip as passenger to Preston for a hotel overnight, up in the morning, required trips done, then passenger trip home - I'm expecting the reason this can't be done is because Northern or their predecessors and the unions have never negotiated lodging, am I wrong?
 
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MEN organised (or at least publicised) a petition demanding government action to end the rail chaos and fix decades of underfunding in the north.
With one voice, we say to the Prime Minister: You promised us a northern powerhouse. It’s time you delivered it.

Today we issue a rallying cry to the north: join us to demand what government promised us. As part of our day of action, news titles across the region are starting a petition calling on ministers to come good on their northern powerhouse pledges - by ending the chaos on our rail services, signing off the upgrades they promised us and redressing decades of underfunding to the region.
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Read more
 
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RickSanchez

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alangla said:
The whole 1 return journey a day over the Blackpool line for distant depots just seems bizarre. If this was managed the way any other industry would manage it, it would be a short turn the day before followed by a trip as passenger to Preston for a hotel overnight, up in the morning, required trips done, then passenger trip home - I'm expecting the reason this can't be done is because Northern or their predecessors and the unions have never negotiated lodging, am I wrong?
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Length of shift previous day bears no relation to length of shift the following day as the rostering never gets anywhere near the 72h max in a week

You are correct in that the problem in this approach is there is no agreement that allows overnight lodging.

I can’t see why overnight lodgings would be welcome as it could then descend into things such as first train out of Sheffield/Nottingham/Blackpool needing covering by drivers from Leeds and them having to lodge to work first service in the morning

Can see no support for this from drivers/union or indeed the company due to cost implications and openness to abuse

for long distance intercity services and freight then I fully understand why such agreements exist as it solves more issues than it throws up
 
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WCMLaddict

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Actually there is lodging agreement for training purposes. It’s never been used for route learning.

In case of Preston-Blackpool route learning Vic and Leeds crew would not be far away enough to be allowed to lodge. These restrictions were set by company not union.
 
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Andyh82

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Most office workers who have to attend a business meeting a long distance away from their usual office, may get given the option of the company paying for an overnight stay (along with a paid for meal, expenses etc) rather than having to have a long day travelling there and back the same day.

I'm not sure any of that is ever in the terms and conditions of employment, especially if it is rare and not part of regular duties.
 
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RickSanchez

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If overnight lodging is not part of the contract then it can’t be expected to just do it

Not everyone is in the same position of being able to stay overnight for work and should be made aware of any expectation on accepting employment

Also would need to include expectations of accommodation I.e a budget for hotel room or single/multi occupancy, travel allowance, subsistence allowance, distance from place of work and taxis from hotel to training centre/alternate depot and Whether for training or lodging for driving duties

I don’t agree that saying just because others do it then so should someone else

If it isn’t expected as part of the employment contract then it needs agreeing on by all parties before being added to conditions of employment with clear expectations for all parties
 
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pemma

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Andyh82 said:
Most office workers who have to attend a business meeting a long distance away from their usual office, may get given the option of the company paying for an overnight stay (along with a paid for meal, expenses etc) rather than having to have a long day travelling there and back the same day.

I'm not sure any of that is ever in the terms and conditions of employment, especially if it is rare and not part of regular duties.
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The impression I get is the hotel is where travelling the same day is not possible or too expensive. If the meeting ends at 5pm and it's 3 hours to travel back home, most companies won't put employees up in a hotel unless they also have a meeting in the same location the following day.
 
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pemma

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RickSanchez said:
so would need to include expectations of accommodation I.e a budget for hotel room or single/multi occupancy, travel allowance
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Travel allowance should depend directly on the hotel's location and if you're too specific about expectations of accommodation a very conveniently placed hotel might be rejected in favour of a less conveniently placed hotel when there's very little difference between the two.
 
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RickSanchez

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jcollins said:
Travel allowance should depend directly on the hotel's location and if you're too specific about expectations of accommodation a very conveniently placed hotel might be rejected in favour of a less conveniently placed hotel when there's very little difference between the two.
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Would still need agreeing

I personally would not want to be bunking up with someone else even if the hotel was more conveniently located
 
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alangla

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I don't think anyone would ever expect that to happen on a work trip. Generally a room to yourself in a Travelodge or Premier Inn with £15 for breakfast and £25 for dinner, plus necessary taxis, would be seen as reasonable and for most organisations the travel policy would be either at that level or more generous. TBH, most employees on £40k plus would expect the occasional night away as part of the job, not something needing specific agreement.
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not suggesting that regular lodging (I.e. More than about 3-4 times a year) should be included in the above.
 
trainophile

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alangla said:
I don't think anyone would ever expect that to happen on a work trip. Generally a room to yourself in a Travelodge or Premier Inn with £15 for breakfast and £25 for dinner, plus necessary taxis, would be seen as reasonable and for most organisations the travel policy would be either at that level or more generous. TBH, most employees on £40k plus would expect the occasional night away as part of the job, not something needing specific agreement.
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not suggesting that regular lodging (I.e. More than about 3-4 times a year) should be included in the above.
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Caviar and smoked salmon? What's wrong with a voucher for a Greggs meal deal? :lol:
 
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WCMLaddict

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RickSanchez said:
Company wanted driver instructors to lodge for 170 training

Told no agreement exists to allow this
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Drivers from Newcastle and Workington have lodged in Manchester for training purposes.

There is provision for lodging in our agreements...
 
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notlob.divad

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I have avoided weighing in on this debate up to now, but as a none railway worker who does travel for work, training and otherwise, I would like to put some points across.

I have no issue with a '7 hour' training day. More than that I think, you struggle to take anything in. However for that to include time travelling to and from the training seems to an outsider as rather unreasonable. I also don't understand this idea of 'Reading Time' and why that cannot take place during the travel to the training location. I am not saying that the time spent travelling should not be paid for, but to include it within the limits of a 7 hour training day seems (from an outsider's perspective) to be strange to say the very least.

I also agree that the idea of staying over the previous night to allow for a full use of the training day would seem sensible. Food allowance is simple to deal with. There is a government mandated maximum £30 as it is tax free. I am sure you can find details on the HMRC site if you are that interested.

As for bunking up. I do that for work in my current job. Its great for a couple of nights, over a week and it can get a bit much. But having a roomy for a few nights is great and really helps build friendships on the job.
 
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RickSanchez

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notlob.divad said:
I have avoided weighing in on this debate up to now, but as a none railway worker who does travel for work, training and otherwise, I would like to put some points across.

I have no issue with a '7 hour' training day. More than that I think, you struggle to take anything in. However for that to include time travelling to and from the training seems to an outsider as rather unreasonable. I also don't understand this idea of 'Reading Time' and why that cannot take place during the travel to the training location. I am not saying that the time spent travelling should not be paid for, but to include it within the limits of a 7 hour training day seems (from an outsider's perspective) to be strange to say the very least.

I also agree that the idea of staying over the previous night to allow for a full use of the training day would seem sensible. Food allowance is simple to deal with. There is a government mandated maximum £30 as it is tax free. I am sure you can find details on the HMRC site if you are that interested.

As for bunking up. I do that for work in my current job. Its great for a couple of nights, over a week and it can get a bit much. But having a roomy for a few nights is great and really helps build friendships on the job.
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7hour training day is for one depot, others are on 8

Reading is time to read safety notices published in notice cases attached to a wall so you can’t take them with you

Travelling pass includes duty time and counts towards driving time and any DBC must be taken accordingly this is a legal requirement

I am aware of HMRC requirements for subsistence and am aware that trainee drivers do lodge near to training centre when doing initial course.

If WCML says that qualified drivers at northern can lodge then unless otherwise stated I will accept that with the caveat that as I have said northern wanted to have drivers lodge for 170 training and this was refused

If I ever was i lodge for work I wouldn’t be happy bunking up and I it would probably be a split between those that would and wouldn’t mind
 
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philthetube

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RickSanchez said:
This....what would be the service increase if drivers suddenly went to 40hrs per week? It would be an extra 1-1 and 1/4 hour per day and would make negligible difference to the actual rostering and would essentially lead to a little bit more ‘padding’ in the diagrams without much more, if any productive driving.

It would result in an equivalent 20hrs pay per driver per month so around an extra £500 a month perhaps.

Seems a big cost for a minimal commercial benefit
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Not correct, in reality, in fact the opposite. none productive time remains the same, booking on and off, meal breaks etc. productive time increases by the full amount of the extra shift length, this is why many companies use rostering with banked rest days.

jayah said:
But if you aren't driving until Preston why do you need a reading allowance before getting on a train and sitting on it for 2hr? If there is the regular driver, qualified for Blackpool, driving the train as usual until then, there doesn't seem to be a need for this. I don't doubt that is what the agreement says, it is just another example of how ludicrous and inflexible the whole thing is. As you are only learning the new Preston - Blackpool layout, not back to Leeds a 10hr shift would be worth 3-4 7hr jobs.
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Ro move the reading time to be included in journey time you need to

A) have someone in the office to ensure that enough copies of said notices are printed ana available, and
B) give the driver time to check that he/she has all relevant notices with them to read, and I am not sure how you do that unless you provide a list of all included notices to the driver concerned

So you end up paying the driver to collect and check they have the needed bits of paper, and if anything goes wrong they might have a wasted journey, and therefore a wasted day.

I do agree that it should be possible to negotiate something beneficial to company and employees concerning the 7 hour training day.
 
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notlob.divad

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philthetube said:
Move the reading time to be included in journey time you need to

A) have someone in the office to ensure that enough copies of said notices are printed ana available, and
B) give the driver time to check that he/she has all relevant notices with them to read, and I am not sure how you do that unless you provide a list of all included notices to the driver concerned

So you end up paying the driver to collect and check they have the needed bits of paper, and if anything goes wrong they might have a wasted journey, and therefore a wasted day.
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Its called e-mail. Originally invented in the 60s and refined further in the 70s, it became a staple of productive work. Environments through the 80s and 90s. Once we reached the new millenium and the invention of so called 'smart phones' it became common to access e-mail on the move via an internet data connection. It also comes with a fantastic system where on the most important messages you can request a 'read receipt notification' to ensure that the message has been read by the intended recipient.

I think the notion to most outsiders of a group of regular employees signing on for a shift and immediately crowding around a noticeboard to read important messages about their job, to be archaic.

The railway expects its users to be using their connected devices to be informed of delays cancellations and changes, yet cannot even get its own employees connected to get vital information to them in an efficient and timely manner.
 
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Moonshot

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notlob.divad said:
Its called e-mail. Originally invented in the 60s and refined further in the 70s, it became a staple of productive work. Environments through the 80s and 90s. Once we reached the new millenium and the invention of so called 'smart phones' it became common to access e-mail on the move via an internet data connection. It also comes with a fantastic system where on the most important messages you can request a 'read receipt notification' to ensure that the message has been read by the intended recipient.

I think the notion to most outsiders of a group of regular employees signing on for a shift and immediately crowding around a noticeboard to read important messages about their job, to be archaic.

The railway expects its users to be using their connected devices to be informed of delays cancellations and changes, yet cannot even get its own employees connected to get vital information to them in an efficient and timely manner.
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Bit of a conundrum, but I have actually found it's quicker and simpler to read a notice in a notice case pinned up by someone else.it literally takes seconds to absorb the information. Drivers have no use for mobile devices whilst they are driving trains.
 
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furnessvale

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Moonshot said:
Bit of a conundrum, but I have actually found it's quicker and simpler to read a notice in a notice case pinned up by someone else.it literally takes seconds to absorb the information. Drivers have no use for mobile devices whilst they are driving trains.
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I think the suggestion is that they use a mobile device when on the cushions.
 
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Moonshot

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furnessvale said:
I think the suggestion is that they use a mobile device when on the cushions.
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We do have the option of getting notices and rules electronically....most of us don't bother however, it really is simpler to read a notice on a notice board
 
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pr6

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notlob.divad said:
Its called e-mail. Originally invented in the 60s and refined further in the 70s, it became a staple of productive work. Environments through the 80s and 90s. Once we reached the new millenium and the invention of so called 'smart phones' it became common to access e-mail on the move via an internet data connection. It also comes with a fantastic system where on the most important messages you can request a 'read receipt notification' to ensure that the message has been read by the intended recipient.

I think the notion to most outsiders of a group of regular employees signing on for a shift and immediately crowding around a noticeboard to read important messages about their job, to be archaic.

The railway expects its users to be using their connected devices to be informed of delays cancellations and changes, yet cannot even get its own employees connected to get vital information to them in an efficient and timely manner.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately Northern drivers aren’t given phones/tablets. So notice case it is
 
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