Northern's Problems in the North West

[Tomnick]

However, why was the decision made to swap the route from the electrified Chat Moss line to the non-electrified CLC, and thereby downgrade the rolling stock from the comparatively clean and quiet 319s to the smelly, rattly and dirty DMUs (150s? - I'm not au fait with all the class numbers) and even Pacers? Not exactly the best welcome to Britain for foreign visitors. Liverpool is an increasingly important tourist destination and while JLA is served by many airlines from many continental airports, from many places Manchester is the best or only available airport.

I understand that it originates from the desire to minimise movements across the station throat at Piccadilly, which meant diverting TPE services to/from Liverpool via Victoria, which in turn meant running them all via Chat Moss (no access to Victoria from the CLC line), which in turn meant running the Northern service via the CLC instead to compensate for the loss of the TPE service.

 

[farleigh]

Or perhaps to one who will smash the TOCs, if that is what it takes to provide a proper service

Fair enough - I don't really care. Smash the unions, smash the TOCS but just make trains run.

 

[47802]

I've just returned to Liverpool from Manchester Airport and was relieved and delighted that the train was neither cancelled nor late. After worrying whether I'd made the right decision for the outward journey a week ago on the first ordinary weekday of the Lime Street blockade at least that train ran too, albeit somewhat delayed.

However, why was the decision made to swap the route from the electrified Chat Moss line to the non-electrified CLC, and thereby downgrade the rolling stock from the comparatively clean and quiet 319s to the smelly, rattly and dirty DMUs (150s? - I'm not au fait with all the class numbers) and even Pacers? Not exactly the best welcome to Britain for foreign visitors. Liverpool is an increasingly important tourist destination and while JLA is served by many airlines from many continental airports, from many places Manchester is the best or only available airport.


.

It will be a Northern Connect route when the new rolling stock arrives, but at the moment its probably a case of anything Diesel that moves.

 

[BelleIsle]

I wonder if the Windermere branch electrification may now be back on as some sort of political gesture.

 

[B&I]

I wonder if the Windermere branch electrification may now be back on as some sort of political gesture.

The Windermere Porcine Flying Boat service is about as likely

 

[B&I]

I understand that it originates from the desire to minimise movements across the station throat at Piccadilly, which meant diverting TPE services to/from Liverpool via Victoria, which in turn meant running them all via Chat Moss (no access to Victoria from the CLC line), which in turn meant running the Northern service via the CLC instead to compensate for the loss of the TPE service.

You forgot the first domino in this rally - the obsession with sending trains to Manchester Airport. Or perhaps even one before that - the DfT's allergy to any proper infrastructure development in the north.

 

[Howardh]

I wonder if the Windermere branch electrification may now be back on as some sort of political gesture.

Yes, I have it on good authority that the horse-pulled wooden carriages WILL have their lighting powered by battery.

 

[Karl]

You've can't help but laugh at this response from Legoland in Manchester!!

The video report in the LEP is well worth the watch.

The Northern Rail models at the heart of Legoland’s popular attraction have been binned in a bold move to back millions of rail commuters. Legoland bosses announced the news after theatrically stripping the Northern Rail train from the centre of its Manchester-based "Mini land".

Read more at: https://www.lep.co.uk/news/legoland...-get-behind-furious-rail-passengers-1-9203273

 

[Bovverboy]

I've just returned to Liverpool from Manchester Airport and was relieved and delighted that the train was neither cancelled nor late. After worrying whether I'd made the right decision for the outward journey a week ago on the first ordinary weekday of the Lime Street blockade at least that train ran too, albeit somewhat delayed.

However, why was the decision made to swap the route from the electrified Chat Moss line to the non-electrified CLC, and thereby downgrade the rolling stock from the comparatively clean and quiet 319s to the smelly, rattly and dirty DMUs (150s? - I'm not au fait with all the class numbers) and even Pacers? Not exactly the best welcome to Britain for foreign visitors.

The standard fare for the current Liverpool to Manchester airport service is 4-car sets of Class 156, which I would class as neither smelly nor rattly, and they're no more likely to be dirty than a 319 as they're maintained at the same depots/stabling points. They're noisier than a 319, obviously, especially with the windows open, but I personally wouldn't regard a 156 as providing a worse passenger experience than a 319. The 156s were built expressly for longer-distance services, the 319s are basically a suburban unit.
I've not heard of either a 150 or a Pacer operating the new service, and, in any case, as far as 150s go, the interior layout is virtually indistinguishable from a 319.

 

[B&I]

You've can't help but laugh at this response from Legoland in Manchester!!

The video report in the LEP is well worth the watch.

The real reason for this was to avoid embarrassing Northern, as the Lego models have probably provided a more effective public transport service these past few months

 

[The Lad]

It just seems a shame that NR are unable to electrify it whilst the trains are cancelled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if the Windermere branch electrification may now be back on as some sort of political gesture.

Given the seeming lack of any sign of 769s actually happening, unless they convert some of the CAF EMU order to DMU (or get a 3 car 230 and forget through running entirely) that might well be very sensible. (It would be very sensible anyway).

Actually, I still see a strong case for "tramifying" it with a long term view to extending to Bowness and/or even Ambleside.

 

[Starmill]

The standard fare for the current Liverpool to Manchester airport service is 4-car sets of Class 156, which I would class as neither smelly nor rattly

It's timed for 75mph and just about anything could turn up. On Thursday I was on one of these services and it was a pair of 142s. Something of a downgrade in both quality and capacity against a 185.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's timed for 75mph and just about anything could turn up. On Thursday I was on one of these services and it was a pair of 142s. Something of a downgrade in both quality and capacity against a 185.

A pair of 142s has *far* more capacity than a single 185. Not pleasant per-se (though a good window view), but a good people shifter.

 

[pemma]

A pair of 142s has *far* more capacity than a single 185. Not pleasant per-se (though a good window view), but a good people shifter.

Depends on the type of 142s. There's not much difference between the number of seats on 2 x ex-ATN 142s and a 185 (I'm including the FC seats on a 185 in that calculation.) A Merseyrail 142 has around 25 more seats per set so around 50 in total over two sets but that relies on all the middle seats being taken, which won't happen if there's a lot of large passengers A 185 does have significantly more standing space than a pair of Pacers though - if it's the fore mentioned Merseytravel one there's practically no standing space in the aisles!

142s also have to be the worse trains for losing time if there's a crush loading - half the time there's a problem getting the doors released due to not much space for the guard, never mind trying to get passengers through 3 sets of doors instead of 4.

 

[Starmill]

A pair of 142s has *far* more capacity than a single 185.

The 60 metre train has "far more capacity" than the 69 metre train? Is this post intended to be in irony? If so I am struggling to detect it. The pacers have a similar number of seats, no luggage space at all and vastly less standing space.

Even if we account for factors like the accessible toilet and the slightly larger cabs in the 185, I still think that the open floor space one provides is more than a pair of bench seat 142s.

but a good people shifter.

This is also a nonsense. A crush loaded 142 suffers a dent in performance in the way that a 185 never would do. The doors are also narrower, have the big step and more difficult to get around when the train is full, which means dwell time on the pacers is much longer.

 

[LowLevel]

I've just returned to Liverpool from Manchester Airport and was relieved and delighted that the train was neither cancelled nor late. After worrying whether I'd made the right decision for the outward journey a week ago on the first ordinary weekday of the Lime Street blockade at least that train ran too, albeit somewhat delayed.

However, why was the decision made to swap the route from the electrified Chat Moss line to the non-electrified CLC, and thereby downgrade the rolling stock from the comparatively clean and quiet 319s to the smelly, rattly and dirty DMUs (150s? - I'm not au fait with all the class numbers) and even Pacers? Not exactly the best welcome to Britain for foreign visitors. Liverpool is an increasingly important tourist destination and while JLA is served by many airlines from many continental airports, from many places Manchester is the best or only available airport.

Such visitors will not just be put off by the state of the trains, they will be totally befuddled by the information on offer at MCR airport station. Admittedly this is likely only to be a short term problem, but during the Lime Street closure trains are terminating at Liverpool South Parkway. There needs to be clear information that this is the case and that connections are available onto replacement buses or Merseyrail services. Yet if you look at the electronic indicator opposite the ticket office on the upper level, you will find nothing about that, and nothing about any trains serving Liverpool, Lime street or South Parkway. Instead (and I did a double take when I saw this) you see the Liverpool train described as destination 'Allerton'!!! Allerton station ceased to exist in name several years ago when it was subsumed into LSP. How could anyone not from Merseyside, let alone from another country, be expected to know this?

It's true that the proper information is provided on the screens at platform level. But someone could easily miss a train scratching their heads and running around trying to find somebody with the right information, before going down the escalator and discovering this.

This business with using Allerton in train planning and that pulling through to the CIS should have been gotten to grips with ages ago. It's possible to sort - EMT stations show Liverpool S P or something similar. Very poor show if it's still kicking about in 2018.

 

[M28361M]

This business with using Allerton in train planning and that pulling through to the CIS should have been gotten to grips with ages ago. It's possible to sort - EMT stations show Liverpool S P or something similar. Very poor show if it's still kicking about in 2018.

Well, it's only been twelve years (12 years ago yesterday, in fact) since South Parkway opened, replacing Allerton. I'm sure they'll get round to updating their systems eventually.

 

[IanXC]

I wonder whether TPE having recently replaced their CIS has any bearing in this - it was maybe correct in their old system but has not been carried over/input to the new one?

 

[B&I]

A pair of 142s has *far* more capacity than a single 185. Not pleasant per-se (though a good window view), but a good people shifter.

Good at shifting people onto other modes of transport

 

[Rail Blues]

The standard fare for the current Liverpool to Manchester airport service is 4-car sets of Class 156, which I would class as neither smelly nor rattly, and they're no more likely to be dirty than a 319 as they're maintained at the same depots/stabling points. They're noisier than a 319, obviously, especially with the windows open, but I personally wouldn't regard a 156 as providing a worse passenger experience than a 319. The 156s were built expressly for longer-distance services, the 319s are basically a suburban unit.
I've not heard of either a 150 or a Pacer operating the new service, and, in any case, as far as 150s go, the interior layout is virtually indistinguishable from a 319.

Either which way, that an important route servicing two of Britain's major cities are reliant on 80s era traction to provide the service is embarrassing

 

[Moonshot]

Either which way, that an important route servicing two of Britain's major cities are reliant on 80s era traction to provide the service is embarrassing

Embarrassing for who?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It just seems a shame that NR are unable to electrify it whilst the trains are cancelled.

Do you mean "Do it on the quiet" whilst Fat Controller Grayling is otherwise occupied....

 

[Bovverboy]

Either which way, that an important route servicing two of Britain's major cities are reliant on 80s era traction to provide the service is embarrassing

The average passenger wouldn't have a clue as to when rolling stock had been built, unless you were to go out of your way to tell them. In any case, the general public has a total misconception in respect of how long railway stock can last. 158s are '80s era traction', but as inter-city DMUs I don't think they've been bettered. 156s are only inferior in that they don't have air-conditioning.

It's a disappointment, though, to hear that 142s have appeared on the service, although, of course, I don't know in what circumstances. The Liverpool to Manchester Airport service might not be particularly long, end to end, but it is very much limited stop, and there are more than enough 156s based in the north west to enable all frontline DMU services to be provided by them.

 

[Moonshot]

The average passenger wouldn't have a clue as to when rolling stock had been built, unless you were to go out of your way to tell them. In any case, the general public has a total misconception in respect of how long railway stock can last. 158s are '80s era traction', but as inter-city DMUs I don't think they've been bettered. 156s are only inferior in that they don't have air-conditioning.

It's a disappointment, though, to hear that 142s have appeared on the service, although, of course, I don't know in what circumstances. The Liverpool to Manchester Airport service might not be particularly long, end to end, but it is very much limited stop, and there are more than enough 156s based in the north west to enable all frontline DMU services to be provided by them.

Thats very true, and you would have to wonder what the reaction on this forum would be if a number of steam trains had been borrowed from the heritage railways to fill in on a temporary basis.

Pacers make up 25% of the current Northern fleet ...it stands to reason that 25% of daily services will be covered by at least 1 unit , or more likely 2. And of course they are being phased out shortly.

 

[B&I]

Either which way, that an important route servicing two of Britain's major cities are reliant on 80s era traction to provide the service is embarrassing

Almost as embarrassing as the quiet burial of the recommendations made to electrify and otherwise improve the CLC line

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good at shifting people onto other modes of transport

Single 185s so busy you can't get on are far better at doing that.

 

[B&I]

Single 185s so busy you can't get on are far better at doing that.

How intensely depressing it is that, thanks to DfT's contemptous attitude towards any form of investment on non-London routes, we find ourselves in 2018 discussing the relative merits of using an overcrowded 185 or a 6 car 142 set on the busiest non-London commuter flow.

That aside, an uncrowded 185 has the merit of not being like being strapped into a badly-built diesel-powered MRI scanner for 35 miles.

 

[Carlisle]

Actually, I still see a strong case for "ramifying" it with a long term view to extending to Bowness and/or even Ambleside.

I’m sure if funding of that magnitude is ever available, a Penrith-Keswick reopening in some form, will be first .

 

[jonesy3001]

I’m sure if funding of that magnitude is ever available, a Penrith-Keswick reopening in some form, will be first .

Very unlikely with three of the original bridges destroyed in previous floods that hit cumbria.