How will GTR recover passenger numbers

Failed Unit · 23 Jun 2018

Just trying to keep this off the timetable thread.

One day GTR will run a service as people expect, but any views on what they will do to recover passengers.

For GN
Pre May,
Most places on the route had a 1/2 hourly service planned.
This was frequently operated by 4 coach trains leaving people behind on platforms
It also suffer on Sundays from mass cancellations because of drive shortage.

Now.
Most places on the route have had this reduced to hourly.
The 4 coach trains are generally 8 (although not exclusively)
It suffers from mass cancallations.

Likewise, getting home from London in the evening is a total lottery, should be 2 tph - but often 1 train every 2 hours.

People in many areas only use the train if they have no choice. People in WGC at the moment are generally driving to London underground stations (for off-peak travel). If you need to use VTEC - drive to Stevenage.

Once they manage to get the service operating reliably - do you think GTR will try some incentives to get leisure passengers back such discounts, advertising etc. Or as they don't lose any money by operating empty trains just let it go. I think it is a pity that during August and the school holidays many people will be put of by using rail because of this shambles - but just interest on views on how they will get them back?

RailUK Forums

causton · 23 Jun 2018

Because of their unique contract with the DfT, I don't think they need to worry, the Government (i.e. taxpayers, probably!) will pick up the tab for them...

Failed Unit · 23 Jun 2018

causton said:
Because of their unique contract with the DfT, I don't think they need to worry, the Government (i.e. taxpayers, probably!) will pick up the tab for them...

Yeah, that is my fear they have never had any incentive to keep passengers happy. The current issues will result in a lot of lost journeys - but because of thier contract they don't really need to care if they never return as you say we are picking up the tab.

Hadders · 23 Jun 2018

I suspect the next operators of the franchise will do some heavy marketing to recover the numbers.

matt_world2004 · 24 Jun 2018

This and the southern industrial action had a depressive effect on passenger numbers in London

It has had an knock on effect on other operators. LO in South London has been hit particularly badly, not southern related but the Heathrow connects reliability issues has also depressed demand from stations like Hanwell and the Greenford branch.

farleigh · 24 Jun 2018

I think the most logical course of action for most people is to avoid trains now where possible. I try everything to avoid using them as they are so unreliable, but for some people this is just not possible. Amazingly, there are many people who are unaware of the current state of our railway.
I don't think it is possible for GTR to recover the damage that has been caused and in consequence the depressed passenger numbers.

plcd1 · 24 Jun 2018

Failed Unit said:
Yeah, that is my fear they have never had any incentive to keep passengers happy. The current issues will result in a lot of lost journeys - but because of thier contract they don't really need to care if they never return as you say we are picking up the tab.

Hmm not entirely sure about that. Clearly the priority is to stabilise the service and that should happen at some point (I hope). I suspect the new MD will be under some pressure from DfT to get income back to expected levels. DfT have budgetary concerns even if the perception is that GTR do not. DfT will want some level of stability around the franchise's finances for the retendering in 2 years time. Otherwise it all becomes another lottery with bidders pricing in more risk around revenue.

I am guessing here as I was not a regular London Midland user but they seemed (to me) to be reasonably innovative on pricing and marketing efforts like "Great Escape" to build usage. I wonder if Mr Verwer will bring any of that across with him in terms of ideas. Obviously his paymaster would have to agree and you need a properly functioning railway or else it's a pointless effort. I do think it will be a long battle though. The railway's reputation has been trashed by the current fiasco. I've certainly held back from making trips as a result.

JonathanH · 24 Jun 2018

The various bits of GTR already offer some of the cheapest off peak (and in a few cases, peak) fares in the south east. Perhaps they should consider removing these lower priced tickets and using a simple single fare pricing at peak rates process to recover revenue (with obviously the opposite impact on passenger numbers). After all this kind of 'simple fare structure' and oyster-style convenience is what people are (apparently) clamouring for.

Realistically, it is people finding that they can regularly work from home or changing jobs that will hit GTR hardest.

Failed Unit · 24 Jun 2018

JonathanH said:
The various bits of GTR already offer some of the cheapest off peak (and in a few cases, peak) fares in the south east. Perhaps they should consider removing these lower priced tickets and using a simple single fare pricing at peak rates process to recover revenue (with obviously the opposite impact on passenger numbers). After all this kind of 'simple fare structure' and oyster-style convenience is what people are clamouring for.

It is people finding that they can regularly work from home or changing jobs that will hit GTR hardest.

Agree, a lot of people will not return working out that they can now work from home 2/3 days per week and be as productive following getting forced into it by GTR, but I can't see even the DFT allowing them to do anything to make journeys more expensive considering the 4-6 Months of suffering passengers will have gone through once this is sorted out. "Pay more for the service you should have already got"

JonathanH · 24 Jun 2018

Ironically many of cheapest fares (e.g. Thameslink only) off the Brighton line should have already been removed as part of the changes when GTR was brought together but they couldn't do that in the light of the 2015 problems at London Bridge.

bramling · 24 Jun 2018

JonathanH said:
The various bits of GTR already offer some of the cheapest off peak (and in a few cases, peak) fares in the south east. Perhaps they should consider removing these lower priced tickets and using a simple single fare pricing at peak rates process to recover revenue (with obviously the opposite impact on passenger numbers). After all this kind of 'simple fare structure' and oyster-style convenience is what people are (apparently) clamouring for.

Realistically, it is people finding that they can regularly work from home or changing jobs that will hit GTR hardest.

A reduction in peak demand won’t really do any harm on a route which is already overcrowded with services relative to infrastructure.

Off-peak could well be an issue - take Hitchin as an example, the old timetable generally offered 24 carriages per hour to London, give or take. The December timetable in theory should offer 64, and in reality many of these are going to run largely empty. The problem of course is reliability - all the capacity in the world is no good if people can’t rely on dependable times and journey times.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jun 2018

farleigh said:
I think the most logical course of action for most people is to avoid trains now where possible. I try everything to avoid using them as they are so unreliable, but for some people this is just not possible. Amazingly, there are many people who are unaware of the current state of our railway.
I don't think it is possible for GTR to recover the damage that has been caused and in consequence the depressed passenger numbers.

There are severe problems with a few specific bits of it (GTR's Thameslink branded services and Northern). The rest of it seems to be carrying on just fine. I've made quite a number of train journeys recently and all but one (the one that involved Thameslink) were quite acceptable, and that one was just a *bit* annoying by being slightly late due to a cancellation.

So I don't think that's "the most logical course of action" unless you use those services.

Surreytraveller · 24 Jun 2018

Why would GTR want to recover passenger numbers? They obviously are quite happy to put as many people off using their services as possible

Robertj21a · 24 Jun 2018

I doubt that very much needs to be done. Get the service back to a reliable state and the numbers will gradually return. This is only a blip - large maybe, but still a blip.

dk1 · 24 Jun 2018

The railway has a habit of recovering from the most averse of situations. Post Hatfield springs to mind.

bramling · 24 Jun 2018

Robertj21a said:
I doubt that very much needs to be done. Get the service back to a reliable state and the numbers will gradually return. This is only a blip - large maybe, but still a blip.

A lot will depend on the quality of service offered long-term. Uncomfortable seats, lottery train service and ping-pong walks between Kings Cross and St Pancras simply won’t encourage people to use the service, especially those for whom other options exist.

bramling · 24 Jun 2018

dk1 said:
The railway has a habit of recovering from the most averse of situations. Post Hatfield springs to mind.

There is a difference however. Once things were back to normal after Hatfield it was back to where it was before. Here there are some differences. For a start we have the inferior 700s, which have already put some people off, plus even if the May timetable started running as planned tomorrow we are still left with the inherent unreliability of the Thameslink concept. How many times will someone be subjected to an unplanned hour wait at somewhere like Arlesey or Baldock, or on a crowded core platform, before they decide enough’s enough and next time drive to High Barnet? People are already doing this.

dk1 · 24 Jun 2018

bramling said:
There is a difference however. Once things were back to normal after Hatfield it was back to where it was before. Here there are some differences. For a start we have the inferior 700s, which have already put some people off, plus even if the May timetable started running as planned tomorrow we are still left with the inherent unreliability of the Thameslink concept. How many times will someone be subjected to an unplanned hour wait at somewhere like Arlesey or Baldock, or on a crowded core platform, before they decide enough’s enough and next time drive to High Barnet? People are already doing this.

These things have all happened before to an extent. I'm sure it will all work itself out in the end & if it doesn't then there will be less crowding in future.

farleigh · 24 Jun 2018

Bletchleyite said:
There are severe problems with a few specific bits of it (GTR's Thameslink branded services and Northern). The rest of it seems to be carrying on just fine. I've made quite a number of train journeys recently and all but one (the one that involved Thameslink) were quite acceptable, and that one was just a *bit* annoying by being slightly late due to a cancellation.

So I don't think that's "the most logical course of action" unless you use those services.

Fair point well made

greyman42 · 24 Jun 2018

dk1 said:
The railway has a habit of recovering from the most averse of situations. Post Hatfield springs to mind.

People tend to have very short memories.

dk1 · 24 Jun 2018

greyman42 said:
People tend to have very short memories.

Exactly mate. Just another nine day wonder.

Failed Unit · 24 Jun 2018

dk1 said:
These things have all happened before to an extent. I'm sure it will all work itself out in the end & if it doesn't then there will be less crowding in future.

Probably right. This time next year may all be forgotten about.

However currently as a user this is worse than potters bar and Hatfield. At least they published a revised timetable after those incidents where now it is just a lottery.

But thinking back I don’t recall any advertising campaigns that the railway was back in business back then. Hull trains is still strong. (Mention them as they were setting up during Hatfield)

ChiefPlanner · 24 Jun 2018

The off peak service was really well used on the MML pre the TT change , it has now been very seriously dented.

Passengers have been through some serious issues before - cold weather collapses , endemic driver issues (partly caused by Govia and FCC repeatedly) , but still come back when life improves. I think when some stabilty returns , there needs to be a concentrated "come back to the railway - we have missed you" - lots of nice cheap offers , and not just to the London area.

However - the DfT as revenue maestro will be involved , so forget it. I know what I would do......

Surreytraveller · 24 Jun 2018

Passenger numbers will return on their own. You won't need special offers. Its a captive audience.

ChiefPlanner · 24 Jun 2018

Surreytraveller said:
Passenger numbers will return on their own. You won't need special offers. Its a captive audience.

Off peak , not so. Peak yes .....

Surreytraveller · 24 Jun 2018

ChiefPlanner said:
Off peak , not so. Peak yes .....

In these days of flexible working, a lot of off peak travellers are going to/from work. And as a previous poster suggested, people have short memories. This time next year it'll all be forgotten about

ChiefPlanner · 24 Jun 2018

Surreytraveller said:
In these days of flexible working, a lot of off peak travellers are going to/from work. And as a previous poster suggested, people have short memories. This time next year it'll all be forgotten about

Provided ,for example the now missing 0932 fast off SAC runs again....(first cheap train off peak) ......not quite so sure.

jimbo99 · 24 Jun 2018

There is a constant churn of actual/potential customers. People retiring, people changing jobs, immigrants, emigrants. Getting details right helps a lot. Proper information, friendly staff, usual service issues. A number of times I've seen East Croydon station gateline staff lolling around in one place resenting their conversation being interrupted by a customer who is struggling at a barrier. This irritates people and has nothing to with ironing board seats or trouble in the core.

Many years ago I remember a chap at Eden Park station who would ring Hayes to check the train had departed and then walk up the platform personally letting people know if the train was late. He kept the rather non-descript station spotless. Despite my comment about gateline staff at ECR, a chap on the platform went out of his way to phone a guy at Gatwick to check the train I had just got off for my missing Oystercard. When people are expecting nothing, small experiences such as this can make a huge difference, especially to newcomers to the railway service who don't have the "baggage" of previous experience.

MrCub · 24 Jun 2018

They will recover in time, including off-peak. I know that the dreadful 700s are hated on here, but to the average passenger they are 'new trains' or simply 'the trains', and come without quality judgement. If you have a choice between going to, say, London on a train that was a bit crap, or not going at all, people will still take the train if that was the intended mode of transport. No hassle with long car trips, parking, and all the other stuff. Mr and Mrs Average will still have their occasional day out using a cheap travelcard, or their once-in-a-while theatre trip regardless of crap trains or a two month timetable disaster.

jon0844 · 24 Jun 2018

Robertj21a said:
I doubt that very much needs to be done. Get the service back to a reliable state and the numbers will gradually return. This is only a blip - large maybe, but still a blip.

People do have short memories. Has everyone stopped using Southern trains after the strikes? Didn't seem so on Saturday when I was in Brighton.

People also seem to be talking about how everything was fine before May 20. Of course it was significantly better (how could it not be?) but you have people talking as if there was never a single cancellation or late running service.

Back in the BR days it was supposedly even better, with trains brought out of sidings with a minute's notice to stand in whenever there was a problem.

What's more, besides the ironing board comments a long time ago now, most people seem to like the 700s and have taken the time to post about how good they are during disruption. With the current timetable woes, they've meant that with unacceptably large gaps in service people aren't left behind when a 700 rolls in.

The same can't be said for the trains substituted by 387s or 365s.

More than ever, people want to get on a train when they see one. Comfort has slipped down the list of priorities, but in my experience even the peak services have relatively little numbers of people standing and there's definitely evidence of people spreading out throughout the whole train and not just squashing themselves at one end, or the middle, depending on where the exits/boarding points are.

How will GTR recover passenger numbers

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