Alcohol bans

Skymonster · 19 Jul 2018

I notice London Northwestern Railway is the latest to introduce an alcohol ban - in this case, after July 27 on trains passing through Northampton after 21:00 on Fridays and Saturdays.

Railway bylaws state: "Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter a such a train with intoxicating liquor on him."

Leaving aside the obvious sexist nature of the bylaws, I'd be fascinated to know what constitutes "reasonable notice". I have just tried to book a ticket on one of the affected trains, and no notice was given on the LNR website that alcohol was prohibed. Given that a legally binding contract is formed when payment is made for a product or service, I think it would be valid to argue that the railway was NOT providing reasonable notice of the prohibition. It would be interesting to test the case by turning up with alcohol and following through to a resolution - and no, I am not going to be a test case just for the sake of it but if I needed to carry alcohol on one of those services I certainly would.

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Bletchleyite · 19 Jul 2018

I think they really mean "on the Northampton Line", otherwise the 0134 Friday Euston-MKC would be exempt!

FWIW I think it's unnecessary on this line. Almost nobody drinks on those trains anyway, they're mostly just intoxicated from drinking in London beforehand.

Tetchytyke · 19 Jul 2018

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW I think it's unnecessary on this line

I'm led to believe it's worse from the Birmingham side.

PHILIPE · 19 Jul 2018

Alcohol is banned on all trains on the Cardiff Valleys north of Caerphilly and Pontypridd

Bletchleyite · 19 Jul 2018

Arctic Troll said:
I'm led to believe it's worse from the Birmingham side.

That would similarly coincide with the earlier last train. While I think I did do once (I was travelling with a particularly heavy drinker on that occasion

), almost nobody wants to drink on the likes of the 0134 (Fri) or 0010/0015 (Sat) - they've already had enough - it's coffees and Burger Kings all round, really.

If there's an issue in Brum they should probably just have done "departing New St after 2100".

Actually, thinking on...trains passing through Northampton after 2100? That's really quite early from Euston (and because of fast/slow trains is also quite confusing as to which it will apply to - there will be a fuzzy period hovering around 1945ish). Or do they mean "on trains which pass through Northampton on their journey, alcohol will be prohibited after 2100", which is how ScotRail do it (i.e. you can drink until 2100, then it has to go in the bin; I believe you can carry unopened alcohol though). It also as I mentioned disregards Tring, Bletchley and MKC short workings!

So all in all a classic LNR bodge job. They really should sack their publicity team.

alangla · 19 Jul 2018

Scotrail's ban is actually 9pm-10am rather than the close of service. There isn't a huge problem (generally) with drunks in the morning rush hour, but trains from Aberdeen / Dyce used to collect a fair number of passengers who'd just come off the rigs and wanted a drink. A lot of drink. After the ban came in, this traffic transferred to whoever was running LNER at the time, until they also made their morning Aberdeen services dry.

farleigh · 20 Jul 2018

Hypothetically and all that, it seems a bit strange to ban alcohol.
Some people drink alcohol and behave badly. Others don't.
Some people eat food on trains and litter. Should food be banned?

tsr · 20 Jul 2018

farleigh said:
Some people eat food on trains and litter. Should food be banned?

This may be in jest, but eating was once banned on Tramlink and still is on some buses...

Arguably - trains are more likely to be doing much longer journeys and social customs exist to go with that...

MCSHF007 · 20 Jul 2018

I sincerely wish smelly food was banned.

TfL got it right with their "The smell of your snack may make someone else crack" posters a few years ago.

bnm · 20 Jul 2018

Skymonster said:
Leaving aside the obvious sexist nature of the bylaws.

There is no sexist nature to the railway byelaws.

It is a long standing convention when drafting laws and regulations for gender specific words to apply to all genders. Section 6 of The Interpretation Act 1978 covers this:

6. Gender and number.
In any Act, unless the contrary intention appears,—
(a)words importing the masculine gender include the feminine;
(b)words importing the feminine gender include the masculine;
(c)words in the singular include the plural and words in the plural include the singular.

Oh, and if one is leaving something aside in a post I'd suggest it isn't necessary to actually post it.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2018

MCSHF007 said:
I sincerely wish smelly food was banned.

TfL got it right with their "The smell of your snack may make someone else crack" posters a few years ago.

Merseyrail, in my youth, always had posters saying "don't eat cooked food on trains", which I always found a bit odd as almost all food is cooked, when what they meant was *hot* food.

TBH, I find Burger King more of a nuisance than alcohol (if anyone is actually drinking any; it's rare) on the late Friday and Saturday trains from Euston.

The other problem with this, notably, is that it (in its English guise) not only prevents *drinking* on the train (the banning of which is unlikely to bother anyone on the later trains from Euston as hardly anyone does anyway) but it prevents taking a bottle of wine home for later (which I'd expect to be rather more common). In this sort of context I'd rather see the ban take the form of that on TfL or Merseyrail, where you can carry it but opening it is an offence, and BTP are on random trains (possibly even plain clothes) rather than on the station.

Bantamzen · 20 Jul 2018

I don't know what it is about me, but it seems that whenever I get on my first train home on the evening commute someone nearby has to have a picnic, or worse pull out a McFranchise burger with the chemical smelling fries.....

Seriously though, as far as food goes so long as people don't jump on with a sweaty kebab, or something that gasses out the rest of the carriage I generally don't mind people eating nearby (so long as I can't hear loud eating noises, that drives me scatty, but that's just me).

As for drinking, well I'll confess to sometimes having a couple of beers or some wine on longer journeys when there is no work at the end. However I keep it in moderation, and wouldn't do it at the end of a night out. So I can understand some trains having a no drinking policy, although some people do seem to get very snooty at the thought of someone else having a drink at reasonable times of the day, simply because they don't do it.

However people shouldn't be stopped taking alcohol home with them, just because someone is on a late night train with some beer or wine in a shopping bag doesn't mean they are drunk. They could have just finished a late night shift and are simply looking forward to getting home, and having a nice drink to relax.

DarloRich · 20 Jul 2018

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW I think it's unnecessary on this line. Almost nobody drinks on those trains anyway, they're mostly just intoxicated from drinking in London beforehand.

Is the issue not on the incoming trains from the Brum direction? Thye always seem a bit lively.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2018

DarloRich said:
Is the issue not on the incoming trains from the Brum direction? Thye always seem a bit lively.

Someone else has said that, but in that case why not just ban alcohol on trains that depart New St within a certain time window and not on northbound ones?

DarloRich · 20 Jul 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Someone else has said that, but in that case why not just ban alcohol on trains that depart New St within a certain time window and not on northbound ones?

no idea!

yorksrob · 20 Jul 2018

DarloRich said:
no idea!

TPE have employed this policy banning alcohol on trains towards Middlesbrough but not away from it for several years

kristiang85 · 20 Jul 2018

I really don't enjoy the later trains from London, not because of people drinking alcohol but all the horrible smelly fast food (as has been said).

Banning alcohol will have no effect as drunk people will be drunk from pubs not from the train.

And if I'm working late and fancy a single cold beer on the way home, why shouldn't I?

Again its a very small minority ruining it for everyone else. Penalise the people being drunk and disruptive, not the people who are behaving decently.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2018

kristiang85 said:
Again its a very small minority ruining it for everyone else. Penalise the people being drunk and disruptive, not the people who are behaving decently.

As I said nobody is ruining it for anyone by consuming alcohol on late evening trains out of Euston because almost nobody consumes alcohol on late evening trains out of Euston. It's the Burger King etc which could do with being banned, there are enough cold non-smelly options available. They'd be better off shutting BK at 9pm and opening M&S Food later instead.

To me this is too much of a blunt instrument that will just inconvenience people taking a bottle of wine home for the evening. If the problem is out of Brum, ban it on trains out of Brum. Or institute a ban on consumption only.

DuncanS · 20 Jul 2018

alangla said:
Scotrail's ban is actually 9pm-10am rather than the close of service. There isn't a huge problem (generally) with drunks in the morning rush hour, but trains from Aberdeen / Dyce used to collect a fair number of passengers who'd just come off the rigs and wanted a drink. A lot of drink. After the ban came in, this traffic transferred to whoever was running LNER at the time, until they also made their morning Aberdeen services dry.

I've seen plenty of people drinking alcohol on Scotrail during the prescribed times - the staff on board don't appear to care.

03_179 · 20 Jul 2018

Two points:

1. What would they do if you turn up at XXX Airport station with your duty free bag and no intention of drinking it ? Confiscate it ?

2. Maybe they should ban Alcohol on the Friday trains to Brighton and the coastal towns stopping the Hen and Stag party lot ? The Thameslink can be pretty awful some Fridays .. drunken women throwing themselves at you ... Hold on what am I saying!!!!! LOL Seriously it can be VERY rowdy on those trains.

tsr · 20 Jul 2018

Bletchleyite said:
As I said nobody is ruining it for anyone by consuming alcohol on late evening trains out of Euston because almost nobody consumes alcohol on late evening trains out of Euston. It's the Burger King etc which could do with being banned, there are enough cold non-smelly options available. They'd be better off shutting BK at 9pm and opening M&S Food later instead.

M&S is far worse than Burger King, in my experience. Copious amounts of badly-designed packaging which go everywhere and cause a much worse mess than a meal in a paper bag. Odd food combinations which people find unappealing about a third of the way through, meaning discarded food gets left everywhere. G&Ts and other alcohol dressed up in cheap cans which disintegrate into nasty metal splinters as soon as you go to put them in a bin. Plastic bags which seem to double up as sick bags, rather than, you know, the perfectly serviceable toilet across the aisle.

No thanks! (And by the way... I used to work late night trains out of a terminus with both Burger King and M&S, not to mention the terrible blight of Wasabi...)

Mag_seven · 20 Jul 2018

DuncanS said:
I've seen plenty of people drinking alcohol on Scotrail during the prescribed times - the staff on board don't appear to care.

Same on LUL. I'm sure I've said before that there is zero point in these rules unless they are enforced and they have the staff employed to enforce them.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2018

tsr said:
M&S is far worse than Burger King, in my experience. Copious amounts of badly-designed packaging which go everywhere and cause a much worse mess than a meal in a paper bag. Odd food combinations which people find unappealing about a third of the way through, meaning discarded food gets left everywhere. G&Ts and other alcohol dressed up in cheap cans which disintegrate into nasty metal splinters as soon as you go to put them in a bin.

I must admit that the poor design of train bins' lid flaps are part of this issue. Only the new bins on the 350/3s seem to be sensibly sized and easy to use.

Journeyman · 20 Jul 2018

yorksrob said:
TPE have employed this policy banning alcohol on trains towards Middlesbrough but not away from it for several years

I noticed when I went to Whitby recently that the final departure to Middlesbrough on a Saturday is designated dry, but it isn't on Mondays to Fridays.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2018

I do wonder if we will at some point end up with a network-wide ban...or will the reduction in alcohol consumption in the current generation of 18-25s cause the problem to reduce back to sensible levels before we do?

Journeyman · 20 Jul 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I do wonder if we will at some point end up with a network-wide ban...or will the reduction in alcohol consumption in the current generation of 18-25s cause the problem to reduce back to sensible levels before we do?

It has to be said that almost all the booze-related bad behaviour I've come across on trains in the last few years has been people old enough to know better, and hen parties are the worst. A gang of fifty-something women shouting, screaming and laughing for an entire journey is my idea of Hell.

mallard · 20 Jul 2018

Bletchleyite said:
They'd be better off shutting BK at 9pm and opening M&S Food later instead.

Sure, because only well-off M&S shoppers should be allowed to eat on trains/stations, not the riff-raff who frequent Burger King (especially noting their paricipation in the "Bite Card" scheme)...

03_179 said:
1. What would they do if you turn up at XXX Airport station with your duty free bag and no intention of drinking it ? Confiscate it ?

Not sure if they would, but in theory railway staff already have the power to confiscate any item on a train at any time...

frediculous · 20 Jul 2018

I caught a southbound service from MK a few weeks ago about 0830 - not realising it was Ascot that day. I must have been the only person not drinking. Many ladies carrying a drink in one hand and heels in another. Was dreadful.

That said, that late train back was very busy - most passengers were well dressed and asleep!

Steddenm · 20 Jul 2018

Translink Northern Ireland Railways, Ulsterbus, Metro, Ulsterbus Metro Foyle, Ulsterbus Gold and Enterprise all have alcohol bans in place. However, you can purchase alcohol on the Enterprise service but not take it on board. Think it's the same for Iarnród Éireann services too.

setdown · 20 Jul 2018

If it’s anything like the alcohol ban on London Northwestern out of Liverpool Lime Street, there’s no checks before boarding (in my experience). There used to be extra security staff who would travel on the late Friday/Saturday night trains, but not anymore, as a result they don’t feel anywhere near as safe. Last time I travelled on one a fight broke out, bottles n all, I’ve never left a carriage so fast!

Alcohol bans

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