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Graffiti gang who caused £77,000 worth of damage to trains branded 'common vandals'

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Adlington

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... unlike "graffiti artists" mentioned in this thread, who got killed creating their "art".

Members of a gang of graffiti artists who ‘tagged’ trains across the country - causing £77,000-worth of damage and misery for commuters - have been branded ‘common vandals’. The men, all based in Greater Manchester, tagged trains and other railway property across the north west and further afield over an 18 month period, Manchester Crown Court heard.

Brothers Niall and Dominic Leach, aged 24 and 25, were both jailed for 12 months. Elliott Scott, 25, Maksym Tyshkul, 20, and Christopher Uthman, 24, received suspended sentences. The Leachs have previously served time in the UK for similar offences.

The problem costs Network Rail around £3.5m a year to repair, the court heard. Vandalism also causes delays of around 11,500 hours a year.

Sentencing the men, Judge Hilary Manley said their actions were ‘pointless, mindless and self indulgent’. She said there was ‘nothing positive for the community’ about the graffiti, and said their behaviour was not ‘courageous or daring’. “It’s just common vandalism,” Judge Manley added.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/graffiti-gang-who-caused-77000-14925236
 
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SamYeager

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What a philistine that judge is! It should be obvious those people were just expressing their creative temperament! <D :!:
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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If the cost of repairing the damage is so high, would it not be cheaper or sensible to have a security guard on duty at stabling depots over night carrying out routine inspections as a deterrent and to interrupt the vandals.

Lets say you needed two guards to cover the whole week at approx. 25/30k each, then that would be a cost of 50/60k a year which is less than this one gangs spraying spree?
 

furnessvale

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If the cost of repairing the damage is so high, would it not be cheaper or sensible to have a security guard on duty at stabling depots over night carrying out routine inspections as a deterrent and to interrupt the vandals.

Lets say you needed two guards to cover the whole week at approx. 25/30k each, then that would be a cost of 50/60k a year which is less than this one gangs spraying spree?
The true cost of employing someone (legally) must be close on double his actual pay, so the true cost of two men is closer to £100,000. With rest days, annual leave etc you are talking about one man being on duty on any given night. Hard for him to give effective cover to even a small depot on his own. Then you have to cover EVERY stabling point or the criminals will soon learn which ones they can damage with impunity.

Far better that the TOCs fund a dedicated BTP graffiti squad in each division who can proactively target the criminals rather than sitting waiting for something to happen.
 

falcon

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The sentences are far to low.
Also the statement that it costs Network Rail £3.5 million a year to repair maybe true but is however a silly statement. The damage caused runs into hundreds of millions of pounds the entire rail network is under siege from this blight. In 1980 None of it nowhere.
 

AlterEgo

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Graffiti is a social blight and I've no sympathy for anyone who draws on property that isn't theirs, regardless of how good the drawings are. That includes people like Banksy.

I agree with the judge's comments.
 

DarloRich

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Graffiti is a social blight and I've no sympathy for anyone who draws on property that isn't theirs, regardless of how good the drawings are. That includes people like Banksy.

I agree with the judge's comments.

so do I - however graffiti is a valid form of artistic expression when not applied to someones property!
 
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Hadders

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A single security guard is likely to cost around £10.50 an hour to employ with all the added on costs.

Therefore 12 hours a day for 2 guards will be nearer to £90k.
 

Hadders

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Who’s going to monitor the cameras in real time?

If an incident is spotted by the time anyone gets to the train the vandals will be long gone.

The police aren’t really interested in this type of crime.
 

broadgage

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Who’s going to monitor the cameras in real time?

If an incident is spotted by the time anyone gets to the train the vandals will be long gone.

The police aren’t really interested in this type of crime.

Monitoring is much easier these days.
Systems are available that monitor HUNDREDS of CCTV cameras for movement, only the views from those cameras via which movement has been detected are then passed to a human operator who can view the picture and decide what if any action is needed.
Automated systems that detect movement are now very good, but only a human can reliably tell the difference between a vandal, a police officer, and a cat.
The better systems can disregard movement in certain areas, such as passing traffic seen through a boundary fence, or birds flying overhead.
 

DynamicSpirit

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The sentences are far to low.
Also the statement that it costs Network Rail £3.5 million a year to repair maybe true but is however a silly statement. The damage caused runs into hundreds of millions of pounds the entire rail network is under siege from this blight. In 1980 None of it nowhere.

I do sometimes wonder why we don't just make people automatically liable for the damage they cause when committing this sort of crime. In this case, if these people have caused £77K of damage, wouldn't it be fairer for them to have to pay that amount back to Network Rail / whoever had to pay in the first place - even if it takes 10 years of being deducted from their wages (or their benefits).
 

Merseysider

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I do sometimes wonder why we don't just make people automatically liable for the damage they cause when committing this sort of crime. In this case, if these people have caused £77K of damage, wouldn't it be fairer for them to have to pay that amount back to Network Rail / whoever had to pay in the first place - even if it takes 10 years of being deducted from their wages (or their benefits).
Exactly.

With interest too <D
 

farleigh

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I do sometimes wonder why we don't just make people automatically liable for the damage they cause when committing this sort of crime. In this case, if these people have caused £77K of damage, wouldn't it be fairer for them to have to pay that amount back to Network Rail / whoever had to pay in the first place - even if it takes 10 years of being deducted from their wages (or their benefits).
I agree
 

jon0844

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Local paper court reporting often shows people made to pay £5 a week for fines, based on their income (or lack of). The cost of collecting this is probably higher.

Frankly, the only punishment is a loss of liberty but that would likely be considered excessive, as well as expensive, and make people argue that they'll come out having mixed with more hardened criminals. I am sure some people in the above case will say they don't deserve jail.

So no wonder a lot of police officers may not exactly rush to deal with such crimes.
 

Deepgreen

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'Graffiti' is a term that has come to be used to mean any drawing/writing in public, no matter what its true meaning. So, there is then the distinction between that applied with, and without, permission. Without permission is vandalism, by definition, usually accompanied by trespass. Perhaps a suitable term would be, say, 'gravandalism'?! I'm only partly joking here - at least this language evolution would have a purpose, rather than the many which don't.

Trespass on the railway is inevitable, and the results will be varied. Despite the UK's railway fencing regime, it will always be easy to gain access via platform ends, level crossings, etc. The issue won't go away, just as youthful rebelliousness will never go away. If it's accepted that the activity will occur, then the only cost-effective course must be to charge those caught (a small fraction of the total) the full cost of the damage, which must either come from the individuals, their parents/guardians/family, and/or be paid over time. Of course, slapping a semi-permanent financial burden on someone is unlikely to shift their attitude to one of social angel, and will probably only harden their resolve.

In short, there is no solution with anything like our current societal framework, but the martyrdom achieved by the perpetrators and any sympathy garnered in the media are simply fuel to the fire.
 

DarloRich

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I do sometimes wonder why we don't just make people automatically liable for the damage they cause when committing this sort of crime. In this case, if these people have caused £77K of damage, wouldn't it be fairer for them to have to pay that amount back to Network Rail / whoever had to pay in the first place - even if it takes 10 years of being deducted from their wages (or their benefits).

Exactly.

With interest too <D

'Graffiti' is a term that has come to be used to mean any drawing/writing in public, no matter what its true meaning. So, there is then the distinction between that applied with, and without, permission. Without permission is vandalism, by definition, usually accompanied by trespass. Perhaps a suitable term would be, say, 'gravandalism'?! I'm only partly joking here - at least this language evolution would have a purpose, rather than the many which don't.

Trespass on the railway is inevitable, and the results will be varied. Despite the UK's railway fencing regime, it will always be easy to gain access via platform ends, level crossings, etc. The issue won't go away, just as youthful rebelliousness will never go away. If it's accepted that the activity will occur, then the only cost-effective course must be to charge those caught (a small fraction of the total) the full cost of the damage, which must either come from the individuals, their parents/guardians/family, and/or be paid over time. Of course, slapping a semi-permanent financial burden on someone is unlikely to shift their attitude to one of social angel, and will probably only harden their resolve.

In short, there is no solution with anything like our current societal framework, but the martyrdom achieved by the perpetrators and any sympathy garnered in the media are simply fuel to the fire.

You have obviously never been involved in the court system. Good luck getting your £70k back at £5 per week/month. As for charging the parents: insert head shake icon here.
 

DynamicSpirit

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You have obviously never been involved in the court system. Good luck getting your £70k back at £5 per week/month. As for charging the parents: insert head shake icon here.

Are you disagreeing with the principle that criminals should pay the full cost of making good the damage they caused, or only with the practicalities of enforcing that. I realise that if you wanted to set up such a system, there would be lots of practical problems to be addressed in how to make it workable, but as a point of principle I'm not sure that you could fault it.

And yes you're right that I've never been involved with the court system, so I don't know that much about it. But in general terms, if there was something about the court system itself that prevented us from being able to make criminals liable for the damage they caused, then that to me would suggest some reform of the court system was in order. (I realise though that it would take someone with far more knowledge than me to judge whether such a reform was practically possible).

I agree with you that charging parents seems wrong (unless of course the parents were somehow complicit in the crimes).
 

falcon

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If one can answer the following question then one might be able to see ways of deailing with this problem.

Why in 1975 could one ride a train into London Kings Cross and not see ANY of this graffiti.There was not one mark on the brick walls around Finsbury Park. (This applies to just about all other areas on the railway).

Now just about every foot of those same wall are covered in graffiti.

Just look at trains and railway infrastructure from the 70's and there is none of this graffiti.

Think about what caused this utter blight and how it came about and therin may lie an answer to eliminating/reducing it.

It has also spread to city / Town centres. Not help by a so called celeb graffiti artist.
 

Mojo

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If the cost of repairing the damage is so high, would it not be cheaper or sensible to have a security guard on duty at stabling depots over night carrying out routine inspections as a deterrent and to interrupt the vandals.

The true cost of employing someone (legally) must be close on double his actual pay, so the true cost of two men is closer to £100,000. With rest days, annual leave etc you are talking about one man being on duty on any given night. Hard for him to give effective cover to even a small depot on his own. Then you have to cover EVERY stabling point or the criminals will soon learn which ones they can damage with impunity.
Many depots or stabling sidings will already have security staff on duty; however this still does not stop people from accessing the location and attacking trains. Whilst lots of trains are attacked overnight, it is also fairly common for trains to be hit as they turn around at the end of the line or in reversing sidings mid-route.
 

Esker-pades

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Many depots or stabling sidings will already have security staff on duty; however this still does not stop people from accessing the location and attacking trains. Whilst lots of trains are attacked overnight, it is also fairly common for trains to be hit as they turn around at the end of the line or in reversing sidings mid-route.

This is very true. I've seen various people "tag" the side of trains whilst they've been doing a normal passenger stop.
 

DarloRich

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Are you disagreeing with the principle that criminals should pay the full cost of making good the damage they caused, or only with the practicalities of enforcing that. I realise that if you wanted to set up such a system, there would be lots of practical problems to be addressed in how to make it workable, but as a point of principle I'm not sure that you could fault it.

The money will never be recovered and it will cost more than the £5 per week to administer the system. There is no point fining a 15 year old £70k. They wont ever pay it back. There is no point finding a 30 year old on benefits £70k. They will never pay it back. When they default and you send the bailiffs round there will be very little to recover.

Personally I would just give them community service, make them clean it off and make sure they were seen to be cleaning off the damage.

And yes you're right that I've never been involved with the court system, so I don't know that much about it. But in general terms, if there was something about the court system itself that prevented us from being able to make criminals liable for the damage they caused, then that to me would suggest some reform of the court system was in order. (I realise though that it would take someone with far more knowledge than me to judge whether such a reform was practically possible).

it isnt so much the court system as the people that come before the court. They aren't, often, nice middle class boys with the ability to payback fines at a sensible level or even something to lose by going to court they are most often people outside of the system or at the bottom of society.

I agree with you that charging parents seems wrong (unless of course the parents were somehow complicit in the crimes).

agreed
 

Old Yard Dog

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Good to see a judge locking these vandals up . Graffiti puts decent people off rail travel and turns areas downmarket . I went on a RTC tour of the former Yugoslavia a couple of years ago and was seriously depressed by the graffiti infested trains and stations which made them seem run down and decrepit
 

DarloRich

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Graffiti puts decent people off rail travel and turns areas downmarket . I went on a RTC tour of the former Yugoslavia a couple of years ago and was seriously depressed by the graffiti infested trains and stations which made them seem run down and decrepit

yet the locals don't seem to care.
 

LAX54

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Would centrally monitored CCTV triggered by movement be as effective yet cheaper?

A few years back, there was a spate of graffiti on units in the c.sdgs at Colchester, to the extent, that the BTP and sometimes the MOM did stakeouts to catch them, clever blighters still did not get caught, so they set up CCTV in various locations, on play back....nothing...but the units sill got splodged ! They WERE caught in the end, and went to Court, but came away with a smacked hand and told not to do it again !
 

talltim

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If one can answer the following question then one might be able to see ways of deailing with this problem.

Why in 1975 could one ride a train into London Kings Cross and not see ANY of this graffiti.There was not one mark on the brick walls around Finsbury Park. (This applies to just about all other areas on the railway).

Now just about every foot of those same wall are covered in graffiti.

Just look at trains and railway infrastructure from the 70's and there is none of this graffiti.

Think about what caused this utter blight and how it came about and therin may lie an answer to eliminating/reducing it.

It has also spread to city / Town centres. Not help by a so called celeb graffiti artist.

When did spray paint cans becaome universally available?
 

DanTrain

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Good to see a judge locking these vandals up . Graffiti puts decent people off rail travel and turns areas downmarket . I went on a RTC tour of the former Yugoslavia a couple of years ago and was seriously depressed by the graffiti infested trains and stations which made them seem run down and decrepit
Agreed, I was equally suprised in Italy recently by how tatty the stations/trains looked due to graffiti. Keep it to underpasses where no-one cares, nothing wrong with the art of graffiti in itself, but just not on (valuable) property!
 

furnessvale

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A few years back, there was a spate of graffiti on units in the c.sdgs at Colchester, to the extent, that the BTP and sometimes the MOM did stakeouts to catch them, clever blighters still did not get caught, so they set up CCTV in various locations, on play back....nothing...but the units sill got splodged ! They WERE caught in the end, and went to Court, but came away with a smacked hand and told not to do it again !
Which is why you need a specialist team that know how to investigate without wasting time on "stakeouts" and make a FULL case to the court demonstrating the gravity of the offence(s).
 
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