ScotRail ‘This Is a Peak-Time Service’ on information board

super_sprinter · 20 Aug 2018

Hi all

Last Wednesday, while staying in Edinburgh, I popped to Glasgow for a day out.

Bought an Off-Peak Day Return and took the 1030 Waverley - Glasgow Queen Street.

Once I was ready to return, I arrived at Glasgow Central and saw that the 1547 to North Berwick was the first service back to Waverley. Once I had passed through the gateline, I noticed that, at the bottom of the information screen on the platform, it was advertised as a peak-time service.

I checked the restriction code on my ticket, H1, and found that I should have no issue with returning to Edinburgh on that service. Nevertheless, on remembering many of the troubles that forum members have had with Off-Peak ticket validity, I screencapped the journey planner from NRE on my phone and kept the page with the H1 restriction information open.

Thankfully, the inspector came through not long after we left Central and was happy with my ticket.

Does anyone know why this service is advertised as a peak-time service when the Off-Peak Day Return is clearly valid? I just felt that it added confusion and doubt.

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf · 20 Aug 2018

super_sprinter said:
Hi all

Last Wednesday, while staying in Edinburgh, I popped to Glasgow for a day out.

Bought an Off-Peak Day Return and took the 1030 Waverley - Glasgow Queen Street.

Once I was ready to return, I arrived at Glasgow Central and saw that the 1547 to North Berwick was the first service back to Waverley. Once I had passed through the gateline, I noticed that, at the bottom of the information screen on the platform, it was advertised as a peak-time service.

I checked the restriction code on my ticket, H1, and found that I should have no issue with returning to Edinburgh on that service. Nevertheless, on remembering many of the troubles that forum members have had with Off-Peak ticket validity, I screencapped the journey planner from NRE on my phone and kept the page with the H1 restriction information open.

Thankfully, the inspector came through not long after we left Central and was happy with my ticket.

Does anyone know why this service is advertised as a peak-time service when the Off-Peak Day Return is clearly valid? I just felt that it added confusion and doubt.

Some will say it's incompetence, some will say it's malicious. All I know is that it undoubtedly helps them make actual off-peak services less busy and inconveniences passengers! If they're going to make a sweeping claim like that they should at the very least a) get it right, and b) make clear what "Off-Peak" applies to.

Far too many people labour under the misapprehension that trains are either "peak" or "off-peak"; notices such as that you described merely perpetuate the myth. They should be much more clear (and there are similarly bad 'offenders' at Paddington etc.), e.g.:

"If you have a ticket to or from London Terminals marked "Off-Peak" then it is not valid on this train; an excess up to the Anytime fare is payable if you do decide to travel on this train", or, shorter, "Off-Peak tickets to/from London are not valid on this train". The mere addition of "to/from London" clarifies and corrects everything. They could even add a helpful addition - "passengers with tickets to/from other stations, please check with station staff if you are unsure of validity".

cactustwirly · 20 Aug 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
Some will say it's incompetence, some will say it's malicious. All I know is that it undoubtedly helps them make actual off-peak services less busy and inconveniences passengers! If they're going to make a sweeping claim like that they should at the very least a) get it right, and b) make clear what "Off-Peak" applies to.

Far too many people labour under the misapprehension that trains are either "peak" or "off-peak"; notices such as that you described merely perpetuate the myth. They should be much more clear (and there are similarly bad 'offenders' at Paddington etc.), e.g.:

"If you have a ticket to or from London Terminals marked "Off-Peak" then it is not valid on this train; an excess up to the Anytime fare is payable if you do decide to travel on this train", or, shorter, "Off-Peak tickets to/from London are not valid on this train". The mere addition of "to/from London" clarifies and corrects everything. They could even add a helpful addition - "passengers with tickets to/from other stations, please check with station staff if you are unsure of validity".

Paddington now has posters which tell you which trains are 'peak' and 'off-peak' trains.
Even though that info is completely irrelevant if you're traveling on a ticket beyond London which isn't set by GWR.
Anyway a better message would be something like "off peak tickets may not be valid, check restriction code/with staff" (assuming that the staff are properly trained :rolleyes:

)

yorkie · 20 Aug 2018

super_sprinter said:
Does anyone know why this service is advertised as a peak-time service when the Off-Peak Day Return is clearly valid? I just felt that it added confusion and doubt.

I don't think Scotrail can ever answer that, as the answer will either incriminating or admitting incompetence.

I asked for some clarification on Twitter and they ignored me.

If anyone can get an answer, please do post it here.

TheAlbanach_ · 21 Aug 2018

That service is 1715ish from Edinburgh to North Berwick which is a peak time train if you have a off peak day return from Edinburgh. Still, that doesn't make it acceptable to display that message in GLC.

Hadders · 21 Aug 2018

I travelled last Friday on the 17:15 from Paddington to Newport using an appropriate combination of Off Peak tickets. The departure board clearly stated that Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets weren't valid.

The barrier would not accept my ticket. I showed the gateline assistant who let me through without checking. I suspect he saw my Gold Card and assumed it was a season ticket valid for the train (it's actually a Hatton-Lapworth one).

The train was a 10 car IET. Can't have been more than 12 of us in one of the centre carriages. I was gobsmacked at how quiet it was. If this is anything like a normal level of loading then there's something wrong with the pricing of tickets for this service (GWR want £100+ to travel to Newport)

Compare and contrast to the 19:15 departure....

super_sprinter · 21 Aug 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
Far too many people labour under the misapprehension that trains are either "peak" or "off-peak"; notices such as that you described merely perpetuate the myth. They should be much more clear (and there are similarly bad 'offenders' at Paddington etc.), e.g.:

"If you have a ticket to or from London Terminals marked "Off-Peak" then it is not valid on this train; an excess up to the Anytime fare is payable if you do decide to travel on this train", or, shorter, "Off-Peak tickets to/from London are not valid on this train". The mere addition of "to/from London" clarifies and corrects everything. They could even add a helpful addition - "passengers with tickets to/from other stations, please check with station staff if you are unsure of validity".

Yes, it definitely does perpetuate the myth. I think I mostly found it odd because I quite often use an Off-Peak Day Return to travel from London Liverpool Street to Billericay. This has no restriction on the return portion and I've therefore sometimes used the ticket on services that are definitely in the peak and very full. I've yet to see any of these services actually labelled as a peak-time train.

cactustwirly said:
Paddington now has posters which tell you which trains are 'peak' and 'off-peak' trains.
Even though that info is completely irrelevant if you're traveling on a ticket beyond London which isn't set by GWR.
Anyway a better message would be something like "off peak tickets may not be valid, check restriction code/with staff" (assuming that the staff are properly trained )

It would be nice if the signage was clearer so that it is evident that the restriction code needs to be checked. Presumably if you don't have a smartphone or any connection then staff could look it up for you.

yorkie said:
I don't think Scotrail can ever answer that, as the answer will either incriminating or admitting incompetence.

I asked for some clarification on Twitter and they ignored me.

If anyone can get an answer, please do post it here.

That's terrible that they did not reply. There must be some justification for having the message there.

TheAlbanach_ said:
That service is 1715ish from Edinburgh to North Berwick which is a peak time train if you have a off peak day return from Edinburgh. Still, that doesn't make it acceptable to display that message in GLC.

Yes, it definitely felt like a peak-time service at 1715 at Waverley. Plenty of people boarding there when I alighted. However, yes, I can't see the relevance of showing that message at Glasgow Central.

Hadders said:
I travelled last Friday on the 17:15 from Paddington to Newport using an appropriate combination of Off Peak tickets. The departure board clearly stated that Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets weren't valid.

The barrier would not accept my ticket. I showed the gateline assistant who let me through without checking. I suspect he saw my Gold Card and assumed it was a season ticket valid for the train (it's actually a Hatton-Lapworth one).

The train was a 10 car IET. Can't have been more than 12 of us in one of the centre carriages. I was gobsmacked at how quiet it was. If this is anything like a normal level of loading then there's something wrong with the pricing of tickets for this service (GWR want £100+ to travel to Newport)

Compare and contrast to the 19:15 departure....

Again, there's a discrepancy between the information board and the actual status of the service. I travel on trains a lot and enjoy reading these boards, so I feel like I'm OK with ticketing and reading up on what is and isn't valid. Such incorrect information feels really unhelpful for infrequent travellers and tourists.

Hadders · 21 Aug 2018

super_sprinter said:
Again, there's a discrepancy between the information board and the actual status of the service. I travel on trains a lot and enjoy reading these boards, so I feel like I'm OK with ticketing and reading up on what is and isn't valid. Such incorrect information feels really unhelpful for infrequent travellers and tourists.

I'm sure that if the barrier attendant had checked my ticket properly I'd have been denied access to the train. Paddington has a reputation for this, in one incident a few years ago a forum member was denied access was falsely accused of being in possession of a gun.

There was no ticket check on the train. I doubt there'd have been a problem. I've used this train a couple of times before and on both occasions been congratulated by the guard on my choice of tickets

The real issue here is greedy TOCs imposing evening restrictions, they only service to confuse staff and passengers alike. They also result in gross over crowding on the last/first off peak train while the 'peak' service carts around fresh air. That was certainly my experience last Friday.

Tw99 · 22 Aug 2018

Hadders said:
I travelled last Friday on the 17:15 from Paddington to Newport using an appropriate combination of Off Peak tickets. The departure board clearly stated that Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets weren't valid.

I happened to be travelling from Paddington yesterday and noticed the new poster by the gateline that cactustwirly mentioned in an earlier post. I think it's actually an improvement on the previous one as it does make it much clearer which services are subject to the various GWR off-peak restrictions.

I also noticed that there's a small footnote at the bottom right that says something like "some off-peak tickets may not be subject to these restrictions". It does seem that GWR might have changed their attitude slightly, after all the well documented problems people have had there, and the previous gateline poster didn't contain this wording afaik. But as you say, the departure boards certainly don't make any concession to this, so less informed travellers will still lose out.

ForTheLoveOf · 22 Aug 2018

Tw99 said:
I happened to be travelling from Paddington yesterday and noticed the new poster by the gateline that cactustwirly mentioned in an earlier post. I think it's actually an improvement on the previous one as it does make it much clearer which services are subject to the various GWR off-peak restrictions.

I also noticed that there's a small footnote at the bottom right that says something like "some off-peak tickets may not be subject to these restrictions". It does seem that GWR might have changed their attitude slightly, after all the well documented problems people have had there, and the previous gateline poster didn't contain this wording afaik. But as you say, the departure boards certainly don't make any concession to this, so less informed travellers will still lose out.

A small footnote is wholly unacceptable, even if it is better than the previous wholesale denial there may be any other restrictions that apply.

They should make amply clear that: "For tickets to/from London, the following restrictions apply.... For other tickets, other restrictions may apply, please ask staff". Anything else may be bordering on fraudulent misrepresentation - as they intend to make people buy new tickets (or excess their tickets).

district · 22 Aug 2018

At one of the stations in my area I announce ''Off Peak day tickets to London & Off Peak travelcards are not valid on this service'' for the last train in which CDR/SVRs are valid to London. Obviously it is not practical to announce the validity of every ticket on every train but this is a ''best for many'' approach.

323235 · 22 Aug 2018

I don't understand why announcements are needed at all about validity - if people are unsure they can ask staff.

Most people nowadays use journey planners and apps which advice on valid services.

Barriers should also be able to accept and reject the right tickets.

The problem would go away if the railways took the right action (although who it would benefit is open to debate).

Hadders · 22 Aug 2018

323235 said:
I don't understand why announcements are needed at all about validity - if people are unsure they can ask staff.

Most people nowadays use journey planners and apps which advice on valid services.

Barriers should also be able to accept and reject the right tickets.

The problem would go away if the railways took the right action (although who it would benefit is open to debate).

Unfortunately many management and staff are not aware that different restrictions apply to different tickets. Barriers are not intelligent and cannot realistically be programed to recognise and accept or reject with 100% accuracy every single ticket.

I had a completely valid off peak ticket rejected by the barriers at Kings Cross station in the evening rush hour. The member of staff refused to accept that the ticket was valid and even refused to look it up to double check. I asked for a manager to be called who also refused to accept the ticket was valid.

Eventually after persisting I was let through with seconds to spare with the warning that 'I would be dealt with on board'. Of course, absolutely nothing happened. This was all witnessed by several forum members.

district · 23 Aug 2018

323235 said:
I don't understand why announcements are needed at all about validity - if people are unsure they can ask staff.

Because people will just board the train and often won’t ask staff. It’s good customer service to provide information to help people without being asked, and that’s what we are there for.

Hadders · 23 Aug 2018

district said:
Because people will just board the train and often won’t ask staff. It’s good customer service to provide information to help people without being asked, and that’s what we are there for.

As long as the information provided isn't misleading....

district · 23 Aug 2018

Hadders said:
As long as the information provided isn't misleading....

That’s exactly what we have been discussing!

Hadders · 23 Aug 2018

district said:
That’s exactly what we have been discussing!

The problem is that many staff (inadvertently due to poor training) provide incorrect or misleading information about ticketing restrictions. In my experience this includes managers who have simply refused to check or look things up when challenged.

Gareth Marston · 23 Aug 2018

Once more we see why having national consistent set definitions of what is off peak and peak would be beneficial.

island · 23 Aug 2018

Would it, though?

Hadders · 23 Aug 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Once more we see why having national consistent set definitions of what is off peak and peak would be beneficial.

I don’t think you can ever have a national consistent set of definitions.

The issue is principally the evening peak restrictions, these need to be abolished.

Using the route from Paddington to Reading as an example, all the complication comes in the evening.

I can understand the desire have evening restrictions between Paddington and Reading, this is straightforward for a ticket between London and Reading.

The complication comes with tickets from further afield. Take a Stevenage to Reading ticket, most people would say that leaving Stevenage at say 15:00 would be Off Peak. But to complete the journey I need to get a train from Paddington at 17:00 - do I need an Anytime ticket, should I have to break my journey and wait for the Off peak restrictions from Paddington to end or should I simply be allowed to travel?

Then think of tickets from even further afield, like Edinburgh to Reading. I wouldn’t be pleased to leave Edinburgh at 13:00 with an Off Peak ticket, get to Paddington at 18:00 and be told i’d Have to wait or upgrade to an Anytime ticket.

Complicated isn’t it? The only way I can see if simplifying things is to abolish evening peak restrictions.

Kite159 · 23 Aug 2018

Hadders said:
I don’t think you can ever have a national consistent set of definitions.

The issue is principally the evening peak restrictions, these need to be abolished.

Using the route from Paddington to Reading as an example, all the complication comes in the evening.

I can understand the desire have evening restrictions between Paddington and Reading, this is straightforward for a ticket between London and Reading.

The complication comes with tickets from further afield. Take a Stevenage to Reading ticket, most people would say that leaving Stevenage at say 15:00 would be Off Peak. But to complete the journey I need to get a train from Paddington at 17:00 - do I need an Anytime ticket, should I have to break my journey and wait for the Off peak restrictions from Paddington to end or should I simply be allowed to travel?

Then think of tickets from even further afield, like Edinburgh to Reading. I wouldn’t be pleased to leave Edinburgh at 13:00 with an Off Peak ticket, get to Paddington at 18:00 and be told i’d Have to wait or upgrade to an Anytime ticket.

Complicated isn’t it? The only way I can see if simplifying things is to abolish evening peak restrictions.

Which would even out the load and would reduce the super crushed loaded last/first off-peak services out of Euston etc.

Hadders · 23 Aug 2018

Kite159 said:
Which would even out the load and would reduce the super crushed loaded last/first off-peak services out of Euston etc.

Absolutely spot on.

Mag_seven · 23 Aug 2018

Hadders said:
The only way I can see if simplifying things is to abolish evening peak restrictions.

Which won't happen as the TOC's would lose out.

Hadders · 23 Aug 2018

Mag_seven said:
Which won't happen as the TOC's would lose out.

I agree but we do need to realise that the complification of fares that everyone complains about, and complains practices dating back to the days of British Rail, has actually been manufactured by the privatised railway and the greedy DfT and train operating companies.

Gareth Marston · 23 Aug 2018

I book people into Euston and also Paddington. I find GWR's restrictions far fairer plus there's sensible walk on single leg fares available. VTWC are a nightmare.

92002 · 23 Aug 2018

super_sprinter said:
Yes, it definitely does perpetuate the myth. I think I mostly found it odd because I quite often use an Off-Peak Day Return to travel from London Liverpool Street to Billericay. This has no restriction on the return portion and I've therefore sometimes used the ticket on services that are definitely in the peak and very full. I've yet to see any of these services actually labelled as a peak-time train.

It would be nice if the signage was clearer so that it is evident that the restriction code needs to be checked. Presumably if you don't have a smartphone or any connection then staff could look it up for you.

That's terrible that they did not reply. There must be some justification for having the message there.

Yes, it definitely felt like a peak-time service at 1715 at Waverley. Plenty of people boarding there when I alighted. However, yes, I can't see the relevance of showing that message at Glasgow Central.

Again, there's a discrepancy between the information board and the actual status of the service. I travel on trains a lot and enjoy reading these boards, so I feel like I'm OK with ticketing and reading up on what is and isn't valid. Such incorrect information feels really unhelpful for infrequent travellers and tourists.

It's a ScotRail thing between Edinburgh and Glasgow. It applies from 1600 to 1830.

So should not apply on a departure at 1547. Certainly would apply from Haymarket or Waverley. So the departure board should not have the note.

scrapy · 23 Aug 2018

An App where a passenger can scan their ticket and get a definitive answer on whether their particular ticket if valid on a particular train or route rather than wading through text would be a step forward. Would also probably help staff as well.

Hadders · 23 Aug 2018

An App really isn't required. Off Peak tickets already say 'see restrictions nre.co.uk/Y4' for example.

The problem is staff and managers who refuse to believe that an off peak ticket could ever be valid in the evening rush hour.

MrCub · 23 Aug 2018

I had a dreadful encounter with a misery guts at Kings Cross who INSISTED I couldn't use my ALR on a train to Newcastle in the evening 'peak'. He was so loud and rude to me that it attracted attention and caused an embarrassing scene. Fortunately, it also attracted the attention of some of his colleagues who put him right; 'It's an All Line Rover - he can go where he wants, when he wants, how he wants, pretty much'. I was grateful but this should never happen in the first place. I complained to VTEC and didn't even get a reply.

Hadders · 23 Aug 2018

MrCub said:
I had a dreadful encounter with a misery guts at Kings Cross who INSISTED I couldn't use my ALR on a train to Newcastle in the evening 'peak'. He was so loud and rude to me that it attracted attention and caused an embarrassing scene. Fortunately, it also attracted the attention of some of his colleagues who put him right; 'It's an All Line Rover - he can go where he wants, when he wants, how he wants, pretty much'. I was grateful but this should never happen in the first place. I complained to VTEC and didn't even get a reply.

This is similar to the issue I had described further up thread. I complained to VTEC and they also told me the ticket wasn't valid. I then complained directly to David Horne, got a reply promising a full investigation but heard nothing else. I decided not to pursue the matter further simply because I didn't want to expose the ticket I was using to 'simplification'.

I was using the return portion of a ticket carrying a B3 restriction, nothing complicated about that restriction:

nationalrail.co.uk/B3

Restriction Code B3
Applicable days Mondays-Fridays

Outward Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:00.

Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:00.

ScotRail ‘This Is a Peak-Time Service’ on information board

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