KashmireHawker
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They did on April 24th: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/first/trenitalia-withdraws-east-midlands-bid
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East Midlands Franchise 2019-
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They did on April 24th: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/first/trenitalia-withdraws-east-midlands-bid
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Killingworth
Established Member
TPE have made no secret of their wish to take over Liverpool - Nottingham and seem to have had some expectation that it might come sooner than later. However, it's made clear in the ITT that Liverpool - Nottingham will go to either TPE or Northern, and that would probably be in December 2021.
That is when the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is most likely to be operational, although if they start work in early 2019 it could be sooner - but they may start later, or not at all. In which case all bets are off and Liverpool - Norwich may continue until some unknown future date with East Midlands. It's as clear as mud but someone in the DfT will have to make decisions eventually.
When the Hope Valley Scheme does become operational there should be another hourly fast train between Manchester and Sheffield. It may start at Chester, Liverpool, Blackpool, or Preston (other starting points can still be suggested) and go to Leeds, Hull, Lincoln, Derby or Leicester (again, other destinations can be suggested). That too may go to TPE or Northern Connect.
It would seem logical for TPE to operate two fast services down the Hope Valley, and Northern to do the same (slow and faster). However, logic comes in many forms. Rolling stock will be an issue for the DfT when deciding franchises. 185s are nice enough trains, but their split between first and standard class leaves too little standard accommodation in a 3 car unit. Catering requires two trolleys in a 6 car train. DfT want future operators, on the fast Manchester-Sheffield section at least, to offer first class seating and catering. EM's current 158s can offer catering from one trolley along 4 cars, and 5 or 6 if necessary, but no first class. What Northern Connect will offer is unclear. The publicity for 195s doesn't seen to suggest any first class, or catering?
Compromise will have to happen somewhere and available leasing options are part of it. The destination blinds on 185s are just theatre, playing to the gallery!
That is when the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is most likely to be operational, although if they start work in early 2019 it could be sooner - but they may start later, or not at all. In which case all bets are off and Liverpool - Norwich may continue until some unknown future date with East Midlands. It's as clear as mud but someone in the DfT will have to make decisions eventually.
When the Hope Valley Scheme does become operational there should be another hourly fast train between Manchester and Sheffield. It may start at Chester, Liverpool, Blackpool, or Preston (other starting points can still be suggested) and go to Leeds, Hull, Lincoln, Derby or Leicester (again, other destinations can be suggested). That too may go to TPE or Northern Connect.
It would seem logical for TPE to operate two fast services down the Hope Valley, and Northern to do the same (slow and faster). However, logic comes in many forms. Rolling stock will be an issue for the DfT when deciding franchises. 185s are nice enough trains, but their split between first and standard class leaves too little standard accommodation in a 3 car unit. Catering requires two trolleys in a 6 car train. DfT want future operators, on the fast Manchester-Sheffield section at least, to offer first class seating and catering. EM's current 158s can offer catering from one trolley along 4 cars, and 5 or 6 if necessary, but no first class. What Northern Connect will offer is unclear. The publicity for 195s doesn't seen to suggest any first class, or catering?
Compromise will have to happen somewhere and available leasing options are part of it. The destination blinds on 185s are just theatre, playing to the gallery!
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Killingworth
Established Member
All operators running through Manchester have major issues now with punctuality due to excessive committments by TOCs to operating too many long distance services over too few tracks - see the Piccadilly Platforms 15 and 16 thread! Adding more is going to be very challenging.
EMT seems to have fewer in my experience. Helps that the 158's are better crowd busters.
Killingworth
Established Member
Over the last 4 weeks the average delay on trains between Piccadilly and Sheffield has been well over 5 minutes, on a journey that should take about 50 (slightly more for 158s, less for 185s) minutes for about 45 miles, and some trains are averaging over 10 minutes late - East Midlands have had 4 of the worst 5.
I can well imagine East Midland crews dreading the approaches to Manchester as they wait for unknowable periods to await paths, knowing that if they're delayed going west they may have to terminate at Warrington and probably face yet more delays and subsequent diversions going back!
I've more chance of getting a seat though.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Surely a 185 has the same capacity of a 158 + 153?
Not really. The class 185 have a lot of wasted space (the spaces for wheelchair passengers between the cab and first class, first class itself and the bit reserved for the trolley to go
Class 185 - 181 seats (15 First Class + 154 standard + 12 tip up)
Class 158 (2 car based on a Northern porterbrook set) 145 seats (138 +7 tip up)
Class 153 between 66 and 72 seats
So 158 + 153 combo would have about 30 seats more but no first class
londonmidland
Established Member
TransPennine 185 updated P.I.S list. Obviously this doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll run to all these places listed.
atraindriver
Member
To be honest I'm surprised there's so little on there. I would have expected them simply to have copied the 158 database.
Mind you, it seems that having a standard basic database is old hat nowadays; one of the things I noticed about TrainFX is that the destination-only data has been deleted, which seems a bit foolish as it means there's no option of displaying at least a destination if the correct stopping pattern isn't in the database.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I don't understand that, as the EM franchise would need to be awarded, and then the DfT would have to renegotiate the TPE franchise.
Killingworth
Established Member
I believe potential remapping of Liverpool - Nottingham is built in to both the TPE and Northern franchises.
TPE have had a lot of critism recently for high fares especially with withdrawing Off Peak Returns on some routes, so I expect fares between Nottingham and Manchester etc will rise.
If timekeeping in the Manchester area remains a problem I suppose the catering establishments at Nottingham will gain lots of custom from through passengers who miss their connections. As on most routes connections will not be held at Nottingham when there is late running meaning long waits at Nottingham if there has been delays especially between Liverpool and Nottingham.
Maybe it does. I suspect it doesn't have the same capacity as a 4 carriage 158 though (which is still the norm) or the 6 carriage formation I was on, on Saturday.
I don't particularly fancy TPE's tendency to inflate fares either.
Indeed. We've had the high fares issue between Leeds and York for example, for a long time now. Passengers won't benefit from this move.
High fares... really? Forgetting about my Railcard, I can book 1 day in advance and get a single from Manchester to Sheffield for £4.90 (£2.45 with my 16-25 Railcard). I'm paying 1/3 cost of a season ticket by using this method.
One shouldn't have to book in advance to get a reasonable fare between Manchester and Sheffield.
I don't. As I said I book 1 day in advance and travel nearly 100 miles a day for £5-£7.
I'm afraid I've only noticed a tendancy for TPE to jack up walk on fares in favour of advance purchase.
Perhaps its the competition with EMT which is forcing them to keep fares down (at shortish notice) on that route ?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The CLC route has a slow departing just behind each fast and arriving just ahead of the next one, with little scope for overtaking (Glazebrook and slow lines beyond South Parkway). Also I believe the EMT crews (maybe conductors only?) have a statutory break during the turnaround at Lime Street so it can't be used to recover delay. Hence if the Liverpool-bound EMT is more than a few minutes late approaching Manchester it is at high risk of being a lot later when it comes back through.
Killingworth
Established Member
Including Barton-on-Humber, one of the most unlikely termini for an inter-city express 185. This branch line is mostly operated by a Northern (soon to become EMT) Class 153, isolated from the rest of the Northern network. TPE provide a unit to cover an early morning trip between Cleethorpes and Barton using SDO for the branch line short platforms.
What will be used after 2019 if 153s aren't made compliant?
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bunnahabhain
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Skeggy is fine with multiple 156s, 4 or 6 cars on most services would do the job justice and provide ample capacity for both luggage and passengers.
bunnahabhain
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Drivers have a full PNB at Liverpool and step back an hour to the following train. Guards have a 20min Short Break exclusive of walking time as it is an out and back diagram covered under the Central Trains restructuring agreement, similar existed for other long distance routes for Central where the round trip journey time was approx 6-7hrs.
Kneedown
Established Member
I personally can't stand 156's as I find them the most uncomfortable units to drive, especially on a 4hr+ out and back run.
As I was pointing out though, we all have our own pet hates and just suck it up and get on with doing the job.
bunnahabhain
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If only Reggie Rail had installed the much promised DSD when they came into traffic. It was even in the little booked they issued for 401!
edwin_m
Veteran Member
It would be a relatively cheap fix for the EMT successor, if they keep this route, to roster conductors so they can step back too and if the train got to Liverpool late it could start back almost immediately. I realise this would involve about ten extra posts but still cheaper than infrastructure or diagramming an extra train (which would need the extra guards and extra drivers too). If it changes to TPE operation then crews would probably swap at Liverpool but the same issue would arise at Nottingham.
Killingworth
Established Member
But if Liverpool - Nottingham were remapped to Northern there'd be other options at several points along the way.
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johnnychips
Established Member
In that case could you run it via Marple and avoid Stockport congestion (but also lose revenue) or is that line very busy too?
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