Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

GrimShady · 26 Sep 2018

What sort of state are these units in bodywork/structure wise?

RailUK Forums

uxm · 26 Sep 2018

I'm really confused, what will the 442s be replacing? it seems like they're an extra are they really needed?

DelW · 26 Sep 2018

uxm said:
I'm really confused, what will the 442s be replacing? it seems like they're an extra are they really needed?

The Portsmouth Direct is supposed to increase to 4tph throughout (at present 2tph semi-fast and 1tph stopper, the 4th tph from Waterloo terminates at Haslemere). Plus I think some 450s are due to move to strengthen other services, with the 442s intended to take over all the semi-fasts. I'm not sure how that will be affected by the deferral of the new timetable though, maybe the 442s will come in but running the existing timetable?

pompeyfan · 26 Sep 2018

DelW said:
The Portsmouth Direct is supposed to increase to 4tph throughout (at present 2tph semi-fast and 1tph stopper, the 4th tph from Waterloo terminates at Haslemere). Plus I think some 450s are due to move to strengthen other services, with the 442s intended to take over all the semi-fasts. I'm not sure how that will be affected by the deferral of the new timetable though, maybe the 442s will come in but running the existing timetable?

Kudos for calling them semi fast, the additions of Petersfield and now Godalming over the years is quite frustrating.

The plan is to introduce the 442s imminently to allow multiple 444s to be taken off track for their refurbishment and overhaul. Personally I’d be happier if the 444s just had the carpets and the re-trim, but hey ho, those 12 extra standard class seats are well worthy getting rid of the guards office, the buffet and a cycle bay.

swt_passenger · 26 Sep 2018

pompeyfan said:
... Personally I’d be happier if the 444s just had the carpets and the re-trim, but hey ho, those 12 extra standard class seats are well worthy getting rid of the guards office, the buffet and a cycle bay.

There’s 34 extra standard class in a 444 according to the franchise agreement though.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

swt_passenger said:
There’s 34 extra standard class in a 444 according to the franchise agreement though.

Its the sham 1st (350/1 style) that's the real scandal. Should just have the guts to bin it off entirely.

43096 · 26 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Its the sham 1st (350/1 style) that's the real scandal. Should just have the guts to bin it off entirely.

I suspect it is “closure by stealth”: downgrade the facility so people don’t think it is worth the extra, so less users = not enough demand for its use, we’ll withdraw it.

pompeyfan · 26 Sep 2018

swt_passenger said:
There’s 34 extra standard class in a 444 according to the franchise agreement though.

That is true. I’d not taken into account the changes in first class resulting in extra standard. Still don’t think taking out a bike space for 4 seats and a table with no windows is wise though.

swt_passenger · 26 Sep 2018

pompeyfan said:
That is true. I’d not taken into account the changes in first class resulting in extra standard. Still don’t think taking out a bike space for 4 seats and a table with no windows is wise though.

Yes, and as well as no windows it’s right outside the bog. Definitely seems pretty stupid.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

43096 said:
I suspect it is “closure by stealth”: downgrade the facility so people don’t think it is worth the extra, so less users = not enough demand for its use, we’ll withdraw it.

I'm not sure that's true, the south WCML has had sham 1st for over 10 years now. Only on the Class 319s (2+1) is it worth the money.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

swt_passenger said:
Yes, and as well as no windows it’s right outside the bog. Definitely seems pretty stupid.

The space doesn't seem to me to be wide enough for 4 seats anyway, the small bog on a Class 444 is wider than a 350 (where you do have a bay of 4 opposite the bog) and the train is narrower.

swt_passenger · 26 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
The space doesn't seem to me to be wide enough for 4 seats anyway, the small bog on a Class 444 is wider than a 350 (where you do have a bay of 4 opposite the bog) and the train is narrower.

I wondered about that. Could it possibly just be four tip up seats along the wall?

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

swt_passenger said:
I wondered about that. Could it possibly just be four tip up seats along the wall?

That might be so, you'd definitely get 3 in, probably 4. Though when the train's that full it's probably more useful as standing space anyway, I have never been convinced by tip-ups in any form.

swt_passenger · 26 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'm not sure that's true, the south WCML has had sham 1st for over 10 years now. Only on the Class 319s (2+1) is it worth the money.

The other thing is there are still 3 hour journeys down to Weymouth. If that doesn’t deserve some sort of first class how would a similar time journey removal of first affect other routes?

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

swt_passenger said:
The other thing is there are still 3 hour journeys down to Weymouth. If that doesn’t deserve some sort of first class how would a similar time journey removal of first affect other routes?

To me it's more that if you're going to provide it, it needs to be provided properly - partitioned off from the rest of the train, one fewer seat across the train AND increased legroom. If you aren't going to provide it (yes, you, Southern), just follow Chiltern and get rid.

350/1 First Class has 2+2 per Standard, less comfortable seats and poorer legroom due to the thick seat backs. There is literally zero benefit of bothering.

TEW · 26 Sep 2018

swt_passenger said:
Yes, and as well as no windows it’s right outside the bog. Definitely seems pretty stupid.

Especially given that the bike spaces always seem well used on 444s at present.
.

swt_passenger said:
I wondered about that. Could it possibly just be four tip up seats along the wall?

I've seen the artists impressions, it is definitely 4 seats with a table. Perhaps there will be no arm rests to get it to fit?

Mikey C · 26 Sep 2018

TEW said:
Especially given that the bike spaces always seem well used on 444s at present.
.

I've seen the artists impressions, it is definitely 4 seats with a table. Perhaps there will be no arm rests to get it to fit?

I've seen plenty of people taking bikes on the train to go to the New Forest for example, it seems strange to reduce this space

dorsetdesiro · 26 Sep 2018

Then SWR probably will bring in compulsory reservations for bicycles, doesn't GWR do this already?

FirstGroup and that DfT civil servant, who wrote the 2017 SW franchise terms, clearly do not know Dorset & the New Forest, that cycling is undeniably pretty popular here. Yet some New Forest stations are having services reduced...

It is FirstGroup are wrongly using the Dorset based Famous Five characters for promoting GWR as SWR is the main operator for Dorset. I suppose this is just about OK only for the GWR run Heart of Wessex line...

As a local commuter who takes his bike to work, I have had to "fight" others including grockles and Wiggins wannabes for a bicycle space on days with good weather. Removing one storage area definitely will not help if people fight for real or get angry with guards when told there is no room, need to reserve or wait for next train...

Well, transport operators care more about money than the customers, so let's take the Ryanair approach and strip out everything and squeeze everyone in like sardines in a tin, they don't give a damn.

Kite159 · 26 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'm not sure that's true, the south WCML has had sham 1st for over 10 years now. Only on the Class 319s (2+1) is it worth the money.

*A theory* Probably most of the users will pay extra for 1st class on the LNWR 350s do it for the better chance of a seat during the peaks (like with Southern/South Eastern etc).

Likewise I can see some commuters still paying extra for the reduced 2+2 seating on the 444s, just for the better chance of a seat from Winchester.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

Kite159 said:
*A theory* Probably most of the users will pay extra for 1st class on the LNWR 350s do it for the better chance of a seat during the peaks (like with Southern/South Eastern etc).

While there are a few specific trains to avoid or where it's worth arriving at Euston a bit early ready to board, I have a near 100% record of a seat in either peak into or out of Euston. It's off-peak when the 4-car sets come out that there's a problem.

TEW · 26 Sep 2018

Kite159 said:
Likewise I can see some commuters still paying extra for the reduced 2+2 seating on the 444s, just for the better chance of a seat from Winchester.

Given First Class capacity is being reduced too, I am not convinced it will guarantee you a seat.

TT-ONR-NRN · 26 Sep 2018

TEW said:
Given First Class capacity is being reduced too, I am not convinced it will guarantee you a seat.

Well do take into consideration like the seats are going from 2x1 to 2x2 so even though they cutting down the size of first they not necessarily reducing the seat numbers for sure.

Wychwood93 · 26 Sep 2018

To drift back to 442s - units 04 and 06 on the 5Q50 Bournemouth T&RSMD to Totton today. Seen at Christchurch. I think it was 04 at the front in tatty GATEX livery and 06 at the rear in a rather horrid greyish primer. Could have been vv.

swt_passenger · 26 Sep 2018

Wychwood93 said:
To drift back to 442s - units 04 and 06 on the 5Q50 Bournemouth T&RSMD to Totton today. Seen at Christchurch. I think it was 04 at the front in tatty GATEX livery and 06 at the rear in a rather horrid greyish primer. Could have been vv.

Is it really in primer, or is it the base coat which will be vinyled over.

winks · 26 Sep 2018

I have seen the 442s In the dull grey primer too, as the train goes past Eastleigh works the depot windows have been left open and you can see in.

Wychwood93 · 26 Sep 2018

winks said:
I have seen the 442s In the dull grey primer too, as the train goes past Eastleigh works the depot windows have been left open and you can see in.

I would hope, if it is the primer, that the base coat will follow and be applied in a rather more professional manner!

uxm · 26 Sep 2018

pompeyfan said:
Kudos for calling them semi fast, the additions of Petersfield and now Godalming over the years is quite frustrating.

The plan is to introduce the 442s imminently to allow multiple 444s to be taken off track for their refurbishment and overhaul. Personally I’d be happier if the 444s just had the carpets and the re-trim, but hey ho, those 12 extra standard class seats are well worthy getting rid of the guards office, the buffet and a cycle bay.

So they're not staying for long then? there here to allow 442s to be refurbished?

pompeyfan · 27 Sep 2018

No, the 442s will be here for the duration of the franchise. Originally they were meant to run on the faster Portsmouth services which then meant other stock could be cascaded to provide the extra trains needed for the new timetable and to strengthen other parts of the network (such as all Weymouth services being 10 coaches east of Bournemouth). However with that timetable being shelved it means they can introduce the 442s which means 444s can be taken away to be refurbished. Eventually the intention is to run the enhanced timetable which will need extra units.

Rob F · 27 Sep 2018

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Well do take into consideration like the seats are going from 2x1 to 2x2 so even though they cutting down the size of first they not necessarily reducing the seat numbers for sure.

What is the purpose of the word 'like' in the above statement? Just curious.

387star · 27 Sep 2018

pompeyfan said:
No, the 442s will be here for the duration of the franchise. Originally they were meant to run on the faster Portsmouth services which then meant other stock could be cascaded to provide the extra trains needed for the new timetable and to strengthen other parts of the network (such as all Weymouth services being 10 coaches east of Bournemouth). However with that timetable being shelved it means they can introduce the 442s which means 444s can be taken away to be refurbished. Eventually the intention is to run the enhanced timetable which will need extra units.

The Portsmouth direct gets upgraded whilst the Portsmouth to Cardiff gets downgraded
Meanwhile horrid 313s remain on the coast crazy given the numbers of new trains elsewhere

Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

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