Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

samuelmorris · 11 Oct 2018

A downturn in public transport use won't promote fixing these problems, it'll just lead to scaling back unprofitable services and promoting 'energy-efficient road transport' instead, especially under austerity government.

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southern442 · 13 Oct 2018

samuelmorris said:
A downturn in public transport use won't promote fixing these problems, it'll just lead to scaling back unprofitable services and promoting 'energy-efficient road transport' instead, especially under austerity government.

Exactly. We can't sit around and wait for things to hit rock bottom because then the people in charge will find a way to make it even worse.

samuelmorris · 13 Oct 2018

Indeed, but I'm not sure I consider the 701s to be 'rock bottom', it's just unfortunate if they're going with the same seating that's so controversial on so much new stock these days. The rest of it is entirely forgivable, or even appropriate.

southern442 · 13 Oct 2018

Mikey C said:
But a step up from the 455s and 456s, which are the main fleet being replaced.

This is going to be VERY controversial, but are you sure?
Ok, yes the toilets will be a very welcome addition, but I honestly prefer the 455/456 seats to the fanisa ones, and they already have good provision for inner-suburban workings. Comfort-wise I'd probably prefer a 455 all the way to Reading with regard to some (not all) aspects.

TEW · 13 Oct 2018

southern442 said:
This is going to be VERY controversial, but are you sure?
Ok, yes the toilets will be a very welcome addition, but I honestly prefer the 455/456 seats to the fanisa ones, and they already have good provision for inner-suburban workings. Comfort-wise I'd probably prefer a 455 all the way to Reading with regard to some (not all) aspects.

I agree generally. Air-conditioning is the other big benefit of the 701s. Just a shame that it sounds like they are going to be a downgrade in most other respects for passengers. I've always thought that the 455s/456s have a very well designed interior with a good balance between decent quality seating in decent numbers for passengers doing longer trips, and providing good standing space for shorter distances.

samuelmorris · 13 Oct 2018

Yeah in summer the 701s will be more comfortable, but in winter, possibly the reverse, if only for the seating quality. I haven't seen any suggestions there'll be an issue with the layout?

Ethano92 · 13 Oct 2018

Although I know not everyone will agree, I do think fainsa seating can be comfortable when it has armrests (eg. 377s) When it doesn't have any armrests like on the 700s, they become much more uncomfortable because they're so slim and don't have a space in-between so your cramped with the person next to you.

The picture is of a pair of seats on a southeastern 376 I'm currently on, they do have a gap in between them so when you are sitting next to someone, you do have some space. The 455s have this gap but my guess is that the 701s seats will be squashed together which for the journey length these trains will have may be worse than the padding of the seats themselves.

At least Aventura's don't have intrusive heating so people sitting by the window will actually have somewhere to place their feet.

After travelling on a 345 today, Im impressed with acceleration, it felt more like the tube. I really do hope 701s will be as slick and accelerate as quick as the 345s, that could cut journey times by a bit.

TT-ONR-NRN · 13 Oct 2018

Ethano92 said:
View attachment 53693 Although I know not everyone will agree, I do think fainsa seating can be comfortable when it has armrests (eg. 377s) When it doesn't have any armrests like on the 700s, they become much more uncomfortable because they're so slim and don't have a space in-between so your cramped with the person next to you.

The picture is of a pair of seats on a southeastern 375 I'm currently on, they do have a gap in between them so when you are sitting next to someone, you do have some space. The 455s have this gap but my guess is that the 701s seats will be squashed together which for the journey length these trains will have may be worse than the padding of the seats themselves.

At least Aventura's don't have intrusive heating so people sitting by the window will actually have somewhere to place their feet.

After travelling on a 345 today, Im impressed with acceleration, it felt more like the tube. I really do hope 701s will be as slick and accelerate as quick as the 345s, that could cut journey times by a bit.

That’s a 376. They work commuter services. 375s run further distances and have a nicer layout.

infobleep · 14 Oct 2018

TEW said:
I agree generally. Air-conditioning is the other big benefit of the 701s. Just a shame that it sounds like they are going to be a downgrade in most other respects for passengers. I've always thought that the 455s/456s have a very well designed interior with a good balance between decent quality seating in decent numbers for passengers doing longer trips, and providing good standing space for shorter distances.

They don't see to help with getting passengers on and off quickly. I am expecting the 701 to help with that and also the 707s that are currently being used.

I have no scientific evidence myself to know if this will be or is really the case.

ert47 · 14 Oct 2018

Ethano92 said:
View attachment 53693
The picture is of a pair of seats on a southeastern 375 I'm currently on, they do have a gap in between them so when you are sitting next to someone, you do have some space. The 455s have this gap but my guess is that the 701s seats will be squashed together which for the journey length these trains will have may be worse than the padding of the seats themselves.

Thats a 376.

Ethano92 · 14 Oct 2018

ert47 said:
Thats a 376.

Corrected the typo, thanks

samuelmorris · 14 Oct 2018

Ethano92 said:
View attachment 53693 Although I know not everyone will agree, I do think fainsa seating can be comfortable when it has armrests (eg. 377s) When it doesn't have any armrests like on the 700s, they become much more uncomfortable because they're so slim and don't have a space in-between so your cramped with the person next to you.

The picture is of a pair of seats on a southeastern 376 I'm currently on, they do have a gap in between them so when you are sitting next to someone, you do have some space. The 455s have this gap but my guess is that the 701s seats will be squashed together which for the journey length these trains will have may be worse than the padding of the seats themselves.

At least Aventura's don't have intrusive heating so people sitting by the window will actually have somewhere to place their feet.

After travelling on a 345 today, Im impressed with acceleration, it felt more like the tube. I really do hope 701s will be as slick and accelerate as quick as the 345s, that could cut journey times by a bit.

Given DC power the acceleration on 710s is unlikely to be as good as on 345s, but it should be at least as good as 707s, possibly better depending on whether they have 8 or 10 traction motors per 5 vehicles.

Mikey C · 14 Oct 2018

infobleep said:
They don't see to help with getting passengers on and off quickly. I am expecting the 701 to help with that and also the 707s that are currently being used.

I have no scientific evidence myself to know if this will be or is really the case.

The Mk3 door openings are really restrictive on London routes, as they aren't really wide enough for 2 people to exit easily at the same time (especially with bags etc). Even on the later Networkers, I was surprised how long it took for a full carriage to get out at London Bridge.

Ethano92 · 21 Oct 2018

After a quick search around today, I've found the GAs 720s have a total capacity of 1,390 compared to 1,219 for the 701s. They also have an average of 220 seats per column compared to 136 on a 701. Obviously these numbers don't take into account wheelchair bays, toilets etc but I'm surprised how much more capacity and average seats per column a 720 has to a 701; is this because the 720s carriges are longer?

I've also noted if you take a current 10 car train (455/455/456) and compare it to a 701 there are 150 more seats on the current trains. This isn't entirely shocking to me, and is understandable, obviously some space has been taken by the addition of toilets but altogether, the 701s don't feel like as much of a godsend as they once did.

For those who have seen the render of the interior, will the 701s have plenty of grab poles or will they be more like the 707s.

SWR really don't seem to be liked by passengers much in general. They have certainly been a lot more delays, short formations and strike action than with SWT, are they trying to bombard themselves with another wave of negative press by using seats that have been received so badly on other services or did the DfT specify those seats for SWR as well. Reading trains were running via Kingston today due to engineering works and the 458 I was on in the morning and 450 in the evening were both so comfy. I think the majority of complaints will come from the Richmond side which have had the comfier trains compared to the Wimbledon side (even the 707s if you include their air con)

samuelmorris · 21 Oct 2018

20% longer train, fewer doors per metre, tighter seat pitch due to minimal standing space provision, longer vehicles so smaller % of total unit length as gangway, it all adds up.
I don't think 707s being a comfort downgrade for 458 passengers and to an extent 450 passengers is in doubt, but I'm not aware of the DfT having anything to do with the selection of seat.
Generally agree re: negative press of SWR but the shoddy engineering work at Waterloo and DOO-related strike issues will almost certainly have existed regardless of who owned the franchise. Early on customer service at SWR was appalling, though I gather it's improving. At least they do now accept DR claims rather than rejecting them all outright with fictitious excuses. Trouble is the general public will only correlate the facts, it was an OK line before, not wonderful by any means but tolerable, and since the operator change it's gone downhill quite dramatically. The new trains aren't likely to change opinions much as they'll be less reliable than the stock they replaced to begin with and apart from maybe the 456s and the fact that it means people get a toilet on every train, their replacement has always proven rather questionable.

hwl · 22 Oct 2018

Ethano92 said:
After a quick search around today, I've found the GAs 720s have a total capacity of 1,390 compared to 1,219 for the 701s. They also have an average of 220 seats per column compared to 136 on a 701. Obviously these numbers don't take into account wheelchair bays, toilets etc but I'm surprised how much more capacity and average seats per column a 720 has to a 701; is this because the 720s carriges are longer?

I've also noted if you take a current 10 car train (455/455/456) and compare it to a 701 there are 150 more seats on the current trains. This isn't entirely shocking to me, and is understandable, obviously some space has been taken by the addition of toilets but altogether, the 701s don't feel like as much of a godsend as they once did.

For those who have seen the render of the interior, will the 701s have plenty of grab poles or will they be more like the 707s.

720 are 24.x m cars
701 are 20.x m cars

Hence for a 10 car train the length difference will be circa 40m

The 720 also have 3+2 seating and tip up seats in the vestibules to maximise the seating. (Bid requirement gaming that resulted in revised stipulation on tip up seats for every franchise since).

One of the issues with the 707 (and Desiro City family in general) is the lack of grab poles (and the difficulty to fit more) which has been found to limit actual standing densities hence the informal requirements in the SW tender and formalised in the SE tender on adequate provision of grab rails and hand hold (ie on seat backs).

What is a column?

You are also comparing a medium distance EMU with a short distance one, though argue able DfT slipped up on the Anglia tender as the units will have appalling dwell times which will cause timetabling issues (but they have learned lessons).

Ethano92 · 22 Oct 2018

hwl said:
720 are 24.x m cars
701 are 20.x m cars

Hence for a 10 car train the length difference will be circa 40m

The 720 also have 3+2 seating and tip up seats in the vestibules to maximise the seating. (Bid requirement gaming that resulted in revised stipulation on tip up seats for every franchise since).

One of the issues with the 707 (and Desiro City family in general) is the lack of grab poles (and the difficulty to fit more) which has been found to limit actual standing densities hence the informal requirements in the SW tender and formalised in the SE tender on adequate provision of grab rails and hand hold (ie on seat backs).

What is a column?

You are also comparing a medium distance EMU with a short distance one, though argue able DfT slipped up on the Anglia tender as the units will have appalling dwell times which will cause timetabling issues (but they have learned lessons).

To find the seats per column (eg all the window seats on one side from the very front to the very back of the train) I took the total number of seats and divided it by 5 for the 720s (3+2) and 4 for the 701s. Obviously I knew the numbers were rough as they don't take everything into account, I completely forgot about the tip up seats.

I thought it might be to do with train length, 40m longer explains it but I haven't really been able to find many details about the 701s.

I know the trains are for different types of journeys hence why one has 3+2 and carpet, I just didn't expect the capacity on a 720 to be that much higher since it's got such limited standing space but didn't. take into account the actual length of the trains because I couldn't find that information .

Thank you Samuel Morris and hwl anyway.

hwl · 22 Oct 2018

Ethano92 said:
To find the seats per column (eg all the window seats on one side from the very front to the very back of the train) I took the total number of seats and divided it by 5 for the 720s (3+2) and 4 for the 701s. Obviously I knew the numbers were rough as they don't take everything into account, I completely forgot about the tip up seats.

I thought it might be to do with train length, 40m longer explains it but I haven't really been able to find many details about the 701s.

I know the trains are for different types of journeys hence why one has 3+2 and carpet, I just didn't expect the capacity on a 720 to be that much higher since it's got such limited standing space but didn't. take into account the actual length of the trains because I couldn't find that information .

Thank you Samuel Morris and hwl anyway.

40m longer which is all seating space as there are the same number of doors and vestibules, with some of the vestibule space take up by tip seats too (about 25-30m extra)

720s are 24.47m driving cars and 24.21m intermediate cars

Class 317722 · 22 Oct 2018

I assume these units will be standard class only?

Goldfish62 · 22 Oct 2018

Class 317722 said:
I assume these units will be standard class only?

Yes, all the lines they will operate on are standard class only, or in the case of the Reading line, will be from December.

Warrior2852 · 27 Oct 2018

I think these trains will be a great improvement over the 455s and 456s, as those trains are long overdue for replacement. All they need to do is avoid the ironing board seats, and we have a comfortable and efficient train. I just have two questions though:
1. Does anyone know more specifics about introduction other than what I have heard generally of "They will be introduced 2019/20", which is what I got when I asked SWR on Twitter as well.
2. Will these trains have any 'solo' seats like 707s and some bits of 455s?

Ethano92 · 27 Oct 2018

Unfortunately we are getting ironing board seats. Every answer I've gotten asking anything about these trains is something along the lines of "we won't be holding anymore public consultations on the new trains as in order for them to arrive on time, we had to place a bid before franchise takeover. Expect to see them from late 2019", I don't think they held any consultations at all.

As for introduction, we know the 707s will be the first replaced, 455s will likely be last since they must have the cheapest leasing costs but that's as specific as it gets as far as I'm aware.

As for the specifics about the interior, unless there has been more than one interior render that a few have seen, I think everyone is very much in the dark about everything to do with these trains. I'd expect there would be single seats to reach such a high standing capacity and still have multiple toilets but that's a guess.

cactustwirly · 27 Oct 2018

Ethano92 said:
Unfortunately we are getting ironing board seats. Every answer I've gotten asking anything about these trains is something along the lines of "we won't be holding anymore public consultations on the new trains as in order for them to arrive on time, we had to place a bid before franchise takeover. Expect to see them from late 2019", I don't think they held any consultations at all.

As for introduction, we know the 707s will be the first replaced, 455s will likely be last since they must have the cheapest leasing costs but that's as specific as it gets as far as I'm aware.

As for the specifics about the interior, unless there has been more than one interior render that a few have seen, I think everyone is very much in the dark about everything to do with these trains. I'd expect there would be single seats to reach such a high standing capacity and still have multiple toilets but that's a guess.

I'd expect the 701s to intially work diagrams like Chessington South & Hampton Court

Goldfish62 · 27 Oct 2018

Ethano92 said:
Unfortunately we are getting ironing board seats. Every answer I've gotten asking anything about these trains is something along the lines of "we won't be holding anymore public consultations on the new trains as in order for them to arrive on time, we had to place a bid before franchise takeover. Expect to see them from late 2019", I don't think they held any consultations at all.

As for introduction, we know the 707s will be the first replaced, 455s will likely be last since they must have the cheapest leasing costs but that's as specific as it gets as far as I'm aware.

As for the specifics about the interior, unless there has been more than one interior render that a few have seen, I think everyone is very much in the dark about everything to do with these trains. I'd expect there would be single seats to reach such a high standing capacity and still have multiple toilets but that's a guess.

The franchise agreement states that the first one must be in service by next September. The lease on the 707s expires late next year so they'll be the first ones to be replaced, then the 458s and finally the 455s and 456s. Bombardier were due to start construction around now.

Goldfish62 · 27 Oct 2018

cactustwirly said:
I'd expect the 701s to intially work diagrams like Chessington South & Hampton Court

I'd expect them to be on the Windsor Lines first because of what's being withdrawn first.

TT-ONR-NRN · 27 Oct 2018

Goldfish62 said:
I'd expect them to be on the Windsor Lines first because of what's being withdrawn first.

Well should they wish to introduce the 701s on Chessington/Hampton Court services, they can still withdraw the 707s first by transferring the 45x stock from newly 701 operated services to 707 services.

pompeyfan · 28 Oct 2018

These bio toilets that they’re fitting, have they been used anywhere else in anger yet? I’m just trying to work out why no one else has used them. They sound like a good idea in theory.

When you think about it deeper actually if GTR can manage to keep their fleet of electrostars and Desiros tanked, surely in the long run fitting extra CET roads would be cheaper or more beneficial for future franchises that may decide they don’t like bombardier stock.

Warrior2852 · 28 Oct 2018

Ethano92 said: "Unfortunately we are getting ironing board seats. Every answer I've gotten asking anything about these trains is something along the lines of "we won't be holding anymore public consultations on the new trains as in order for them to arrive on time, we had to place a bid before franchise takeover. Expect to see them from late 2019", I don't think they held any consultations at all.

As for introduction, we know the 707s will be the first replaced, 455s will likely be last since they must have the cheapest leasing costs but that's as specific as it gets as far as I'm aware."

(I tried to put this with the quote feature but it wouldn't let me post when I did that, the error I got said "Your post must be longer than 5 characters". Anyone know what to do?)

That is unfortunate about the seats, but I will manage. I suppose they could be worse.

From a practical standpoint, withdrawing and replacing 707s first makes sense due to leasing costs (even if it wouldn't make sense otherwise), however while I don't know the difference in leasing costs between 458s and 455/456s, if they are similar, it would make more sense to replace the 455/456s first as the trains in the area the 458s serve are overall newer, with services being shared with 450s and 707s, and those trains already have toilets and (I think) WiFi, whereas 455/456s are largely the only trains on inner suburban lines that aren't Windsor, and they lack these facilities. At the moment I think on some lines there are between 1 and 2 707 run services per day with occasional peak 450, but it is largely trains with no air-con, no toilets, no WiFi, and are generally slower.

Goldfish62 · 28 Oct 2018

Warrior2852 said:
From a practical standpoint, withdrawing and replacing 707s first makes sense due to leasing costs (even if it wouldn't make sense otherwise), however while I don't know the difference in leasing costs between 458s and 455/456s, if they are similar, it would make more sense to replace the 455/456s first as the trains in the area the 458s serve are overall newer, with services being shared with 450s and 707s, and those trains already have toilets and (I think) WiFi, whereas 455/456s are largely the only trains on inner suburban lines that aren't Windsor, and they lack these facilities. At the moment I think on some lines there are between 1 and 2 707 run services per day with occasional peak 450, but it is largely trains with no air-con, no toilets, no WiFi, and are generally slower.

Yes, the 458s have WiFi which I find is marginally better than that on the 450s, and since SWR took over at least some of the toilets are now working.

Goldfish62 · 28 Oct 2018

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Well should they wish to introduce the 701s on Chessington/Hampton Court services, they can still withdraw the 707s first by transferring the 45x stock from newly 701 operated services to 707 services.

Not possible due to the need for extensive SDO on the Windsor Lines.

Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

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