Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[swt_passenger]

Does the South eastern ITT have the same capacity requirement for inner suburban metro routes which would also exclude 707s going there?

The same details of how an individual rolling stock’s standing capacity is to be assessed are shown in the SE ITT, but there isn’t the same emphasis on trains not meeting the 0.25m2 per person standing allowance, presumably because SE doesn’t have any existing problem trains. It depends if the future bidder wants to use that 0.25m2 capacity figure to meet a particular route’s requirements. There’d not be a problem declaring them as 0.35m2 capacity if that was all that was needed.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

707s are the best trains to drive.

 

[Goldfish62]

707s are the best trains to drive.

I've heard this.

 

[bb21]

707s are the best trains to drive.

... and they are horrible things for guards to operate.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

... and they are horrible things for guards to operate.

Why is that? I loved them as a guard too.

 

[bb21]

Why is that? I loved them as a guard too.

I've just pulled the cab door, oops.

Particularly troublesome if you just did a conversion from 458s.

I don't think there is universal dislike to them, but AIUI a lot of guards hate them.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

I've just pulled the cab door, oops.

Particularly troublesome if you just did a conversion from 458s.

I don't think there is universal dislike to them, but AIUI a lot of guards hate them.

Don't blame the train then.

 

[bb21]

Don't blame the train then.

In an ideal world you'd be right.

You still need the rollings stock to fit with the rest of the operation, including working practice where possible. Cab doors can be frustratingly slow which is not what you want on a high-intensity network, which often cancels out the saving through improved acceleration, and problematic PIS seems to be a common issue too, and on the rise again, amongst other things.

They are reasonably solid pieces of kit though overall, compared to some of the other rubbish still running around.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

In an ideal world you'd be right.

You still need the rollings stock to fit with the rest of the operation, including working practice where possible. Cab doors can be frustratingly slow which is not what you want on a high-intensity network, which often cancels out the saving through improved acceleration, and problematic PIS seems to be a common issue too, and on the rise again, amongst other things.

They are reasonably solid pieces of kit though overall, compared to some of the other rubbish still running around.

As a professional guard you're supposed to work the train from the saloon and those doors are absolutely fine. During peak time you work the train from the cab (which is massive, aircon fantastic, seat very comfortable). Due to the heavy load of passengers whether the cab doors are fast or slow doesn't make any difference performance wise. PIS has minor faults but could be improved if swr decided to fix it but as they will get rid of them why bother.

 

[bb21]

I'm not entirely convinced about the performance impact bit, but I will find out personally before long I guess.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

Are you serious? You know how faster it gets to 50 mph (which is the average maximum speed between 2 stations on rounders) compared to the other stock? (Not mentioning the braking capability that could allow you to hit platform much faster that you would normally hence save good few seconds).

 

[bb21]

Yes, I have some recent Siemens output directly in front of me.

I don't mean it entirely cancels out the benefits of faster acceleration. Just without that the saving would be even better. So perhaps "some of the savings" would have been better wording. Of course they are fast.

 

[43096]

Are you serious? You know how faster it gets to 50 mph (which is the average maximum speed between 2 stations on rounders) compared to the other stock? (Not mentioning the braking capability that could allow you to hit platform much faster that you would normally hence save good few seconds).

Do they have better brakes than a 458, then, as I was lead to believe the Junipers are better in that regard than the original Desiros.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

I don't get your point to be honest. Cab doors are no slower than 455/6 and 450. On the lines where they run the 707 is by far faster than and it's the only train that allows a driver to make up times between stations. Also, don't forget that rounders have 5 minutes make up time at Kingston and Hounslow. I tell you my experience as driver and guard of 707s.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

Do they have better brakes than a 458, then, as I was lead to believe the Junipers are better in that regard than the original Desiros.

458s have more powerful brakes, but if I was to brake too much and too late they would skid big time. The 707s brakes are controlled by an incredible and more advanced wsp system and barely slide/spin.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

Do they have better brakes than a 458, then, as I was lead to believe the Junipers are better in that regard than the original Desiros.

Also, as a passenger you never feel 700s brake as their suspensions are beautiful and the brake comes in gradually and it's mostly regen, 458 have a more responsive friction brake but could make passengers tumble if too much brake was applied.

 

[bb21]

I don't get your point to be honest. Cab doors are no slower than 455/6 and 450. On the lines where they run the 707 is by far faster than and it's the only train that allows a driver to make up times between stations. Also, don't forget that rounders have 5 minutes make up time at Kingston and Hounslow. I tell you my experience as driver and guard of 707s.

I don't really want to go into too much detail in public but I will explain a bit more over PM.

 

[Helvellyn]

As a professional guard you're supposed to work the train from the saloon and those doors are absolutely fine. During peak time you work the train from the cab (which is massive, aircon fantastic, seat very comfortable). Due to the heavy load of passengers whether the cab doors are fast or slow doesn't make any difference performance wise. PIS has minor faults but could be improved if swr decided to fix it but as they will get rid of them why bother.

I wonder how those Guards who have a cab addiction - even off-peak -will find operating the 10-car (as opposed to 2x5-car) 701s?

 

[bb21]

I wonder how those Guards who have a cab addiction - even off-peak -will find operating the 10-car (as opposed to 2x5-car) 701s?

As they cannot/should not operate from the rear cab of a 10-car, I'm sure they'll cope, when the alternative, well...

 

[AlastairFraser]

Also, as a passenger you never feel 700s brake as their suspensions are beautiful and the brake comes in gradually and it's mostly regen, 458 have a more responsive friction brake but could make passengers tumble if too much brake was applied.

I would agree from a passenger point of view, 700's have barely noticeable braking when I've been on them, but 458's are on the Waterloo-Reading line near me and my bike ,which usually is held up fine by the stand, crashed onto the floor as the driver braked heavily after trying to make up time. Luckily ,as I'm sure you know,the interiors are spacious on 458's, so no-one was nearby. Never happened on any other train strangely.

 

[43096]

Also, as a passenger you never feel 700s brake as their suspensions are beautiful and the brake comes in gradually and it's mostly regen, 458 have a more responsive friction brake but could make passengers tumble if too much brake was applied.

Thanks for the explanation. Much appreciated.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

I wonder how those Guards who have a cab addiction - even off-peak -will find operating the 10-car (as opposed to 2x5-car) 701s?

They will have to as I've understood all guards will need to check tickets. It is also unsafe to dispatch from rear at same stations

 

[Helvellyn]

As they cannot/should not operate from the rear cab of a 10-car, I'm sure they'll cope, when the alternative, well...

They will have to as I've understood all guards will need to check tickets. It is also unsafe to dispatch from rear at same stations

It was more a rhetorical question with a touch of sarcasm on my part. Some Guards will not welcome the 10-car 701s given that even on 458/5s some still lock off the middle cabs despite the supposed through public access.

 

[pompeyfan]

It was more a rhetorical question with a touch of sarcasm on my part. Some Guards will not welcome the 10-car 701s given that even on 458/5s some still lock off the middle cabs despite the supposed through public access.

I’ve seen inner guards lock off the middle cabs of 450 stock sadly.

 

[Bigfoot]

I’ve seen inner guards lock off the middle cabs of 450 stock sadly.

This is usually only done on the approach to stations where the train will split. Never experienced this as yet in my experience

 

[daylightatthegrids]

It was more a rhetorical question with a touch of sarcasm on my part. Some Guards will not welcome the 10-car 701s given that even on 458/5s some still lock off the middle cabs despite the supposed through public access.

The problem with 458 is that there is no space on the left side of the cab hence they close the whole cab. The other available gop is in the middle coach but at some stations it's not ideal for despatch.

 

[TEW]

It was more a rhetorical question with a touch of sarcasm on my part. Some Guards will not welcome the 10-car 701s given that even on 458/5s some still lock off the middle cabs despite the supposed through public access.

From what I understand that is due to the awful design of the cab which makes operating with the gangway open very difficult.

 

[dctraindriver]

Are you serious? You know how faster it gets to 50 mph (which is the average maximum speed between 2 stations on rounders) compared to the other stock? (Not mentioning the braking capability that could allow you to hit platform much faster that you would normally hence save good few seconds).

Why on earth would you hit the platform faster when you’ve made the time up through acceleration? No need to surely? Don’t want to leave yourself too much to do when coming to a stand.....

 

[pompeyfan]

This is usually only done on the approach to stations where the train will split. Never experienced this as yet in my experience

I wish that were true. Theres a semi fast train I’ve been on quite regularly, which overtakes at a crawl a 12 car Guildford stopper via Woking, and most times I’ve seen that service the guard has been in a middle cab (which I don’t begrudge, it’s busy, no chance to walk through) but the cab doors have been locked up.

As I’ve said before there’s some great staff on inner and outer, but both sets are demoralised which means the lazy ones are getting away without trying which is knocking the whole grade.

A friend of mine went from Waterloo to Havant yesterday, didn’t see a guard once and there was one manual annouement the whole journey.

 

[Goldfish62]

From what I understand that is due to the awful design of the cab which makes operating with the gangway open very difficult.

Yes, that's what I understand. However I wonder what excuse the guards have who lock the gangway on 450s...