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Class 345 progress

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rebmcr

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If you can vote in the next UK General Election, your vote can help remove the party in charge, remove the SoS for Transport and change transport policy. As I don't reside within the Greater London area, I cannot vote for the Mayor or the GLA election. TfL is only really politically accountable to them, not those outside.

And yet, the only purpose of these trains (for 99% of journeys anyway) is to get people from, or to, London. The line would not even exist otherwise.

TfL's mandate is to provide for those who live and/or work in London, regardless of any democratic power that is theoretically wielded against them.

P.S. I don't think the Maidenhead constituency is likely to cause any change in Government.
 
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plcd1

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Where's the like button when you need it?! This made my day and has to be one of my favourite responses on any thread in this forum!

It is good isn't it. Nice to see old skool breakdancing is still a thing. TfL should invite them over for Crossrail's opening day to christen a class 345. :D :D
Oh to have ever been that agile and supple.
 

AM9

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It is good isn't it. Nice to see old skool breakdancing is still a thing. TfL should invite them over for Crossrail's opening day to christen a class 345. :D :D
Oh to have ever been that agile and supple.
I'm sure that the local 'artists' could arrange for publicity ahead of their arrival. They have experience working with 345s. :)
 

Doomotron

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So I was looking on Google for technical details on the Class 345s and stumbled on this petition on change.org.

I found this a very 'interesting' read and I would like to cover some of the things that is said.

DOOMOTRON REACTS TO A PETITION THAT PROBABLY WON'T END UP DOING ANYTHING IN THE END ANYWAY

All opinions are my own.

First of all, the name. 'Force Bombardier to recall the Class 345s until they are fit for service'. Two things: 1: unreliable does not equal not fit for service. 2: Bombardier, let's face it, won't recall a train. No way. Moving on from the title, it gets even better. 'These trains were a month late into entering public service, and ever since, have been breaking down repeatedly and riddled with multiple faults day in day out. It is disrupting the daily operations to one of the fastest growing lines in London. The doors constantly refuse to close, the air conditioning is never on, the on-board information systems are prone to fuzzing out and there are so few seats.' First of all, the person/people who made this petition obviously don't understand that the Aventra is a brand new train with a brand new design. Expecting Bombardier to recall a train because it is unreliable - like every single train design when it is new - is simply absurd. If everybody recalled trains because of this, we wouldn't have any new trains. Think about (then) new build trains. The Networkers were extremely unreliable when introduced. So were the Coradias and Junipers (also, remember that the Junipers have gone from the most unreliable rains in the UK to the most). The Electrostars may have had quite a good start but I'd bet any money that they had bad reliability in their early years. It isn't even a modern thing as well. The GWR County Class locomotives were too powerful when they were introduced and suffered as a result.

Then the person says that the doors refuse to close. I'm pretty sure that isn't the train but people being in the way of them. Trains have sensors on doors to stop them from closing when they are blocked so they don't crush people. Then he says that the air conditioning is never on. He isn't clear whether he means they are broken or they aren't turned on but if he meant the former, all trains have suffered from air conditioning problems in hot weather, not just the 345s. Following this, he talks about a broken PIS system. 'Fuzzing out' isn't a real technical term so I guess he/she/they are talking about them turning off or something. That may be so, but that does not create an excuse to recall an entire or partial fleet. And finally, the worst quote in this paragraph. 'so few seats' is the entire point of the interior of the 345s. They were designed for standing room. They are not designed to sit 1000 people in perfect comfort with a restaurant service at 250mph. They are designed to move people across London. Two very different things that the writer seems to have gotten confused about.

That last paragraph was fun. But it gets even more entertaining. 'why are we paying increased fares for inferior trains with a poorly received reception, which constantly break down in pairs or triplets at the same time on different parts of the line.' Now, while I do agree that in some cases train tickets are too high, you can't recall a fleet of trains because the tickets are too expensive. As for 'inferior trains', I don't know what you're on about. The 345s are significantly better than the Class 315s in every single way. As for 'poorly received', who is saying that. Passengers? Most of them would prefer a train than no train, and for an inner-suburban metro train, they're very fit for purpose. Enthusiasts? Probably, considering the whole HST vs IEP fiasco (which we will not have an argument about here, thank you). Enthusiasts get very attached to their 'beloved' trains and get very angry if 'the stupid privatised companies' replace them. But consider this: more money has been invested in the railway after privatisation than before it. That is why the prices are higher.

Oh, and as for the 'breaking down in pairs' thing, I already covered this. And, just so the author doesn't call me out, the 315s also 'broke down in pairs'. I'd say they're less reliable in fact than the 345s, but I'd need to go hunting on very nerdy websites to prove that.

Round 3: 'Us commuters are getting fed up of trains being cancelled and delayed with the cause of the issue constantly pointing to these new trains, in the worst case scenario being trapped between two stations on these trains as it refuses to move for about 90 minutes as a result of a technical failure.' The cancellations on TFL Rail services are not just based on the Class 345s. Not even close. TFL Rail has got to fit in with other operators and their tight paths as well as being a badly managed operator (MTR). Oh, and the 315s. Then they talk about being stuck in between stations for 90 minutes. I'm pretty sure that this hasn't happened and if it did I would have heard about it by now. In fact, I did a bit of research and found nothing to prove what you said. And to top it all off, in Page 41 of this thread there is a small comment by an admin talking about the 'bathtub curve', which means that a train will start off unreliable, then get reliable, then at the end of their life unreliable again. The 245s/700s/800s etc are currently in that phase.

Finally, the last paragraph: 'This is to be the face of the brand new Elizabeth line, and this is the impression we're giving the UK and the world? Something has to change otherwise it will be a laughing stock. Don't leave it until too late. Sign now and let TfL and Bombardier know that this joke is over.' Oh deary me. If you thought that the last paragraphs were absolute rubbish, you haven't seen this one. The fact that the author is saying that Britain's national pride resides on the Class 345s actually makes me lose faith in train enthusiasm and the human race. And then he says that 'something has to change or it will be a laughing stock'. Well, Doctor No Hope, Britain's railway already is a laughing stock compared to the rest of the world, but not because a new train is unreliable, like all then-new trains.

So that was the petition. 100 or so people have signed it (and I can guarantee you that at least 85 of them are angry train enthusiasts), which is unlikely to make TFL/Bombardier do anything, so they might as well give up, considering the petition is now at least 8 months old. I would like to finish here, but then I found the comments section.

Bonus Round:
  • Claire Foskett says: 'I'm fed up with my journey to work becoming a daily battle - to either get there or get a seat - new trains have half the seating seats of the old trains. It's been 10/10 days of delays in 2018.' Oh, what a shame about your delays. It's not like the entire country has been suffering delays, hasn't it? The world doesn't revolve around the Shenfield Metro. But whatever you say. Oh and when you said that the new trains have half the seats: it's the point.
  • Majid Khan says: 'Just bring back the trains that worked before. Plus the delays seems to be happening while people are travelling to work or home. Very consistent in that!' The Class 315s didn't work well before or after the 345s, so I don't know what you're on about, especially since the Class 345 is a significantly better train. About, the delays, the reason the delays happen in peak hours is because they are the peak hours. So many trains and not enough infrastructure is common across the network.
  • Francesca Jones (nice name btw) says: 'These shiny new trains are clearly not fit for commuter use. It’s highly frustrating to realise how unreliable they are on the tracks we have in place. Please do something about this.' I can prove to you why these are fit for commuter use and I can explain why the trains are unrelaible, but I won't because I already wrote about this above.
  • Joanna Smith says: 'Bombardier, MTR Crossrail and TFL need to sort these issues out now.' Well done, you've probably typed the best quote on that petition. I salute you.
Anyway, thank you so much if you have read this far and thank you even more if you liked it. I had a blast making this post and I'd like to make another in future.
 

matt_world2004

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Compared to the reliability of the heathrow connect and the 387 hayes terminators tfl rail has been a godsend in the west.
 

Ethano92

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I don't know where the air con comment came from, many 345s I've been on have been perfect or even steering towards too cold.

I find the amount of seats quite good, 345s really do clear a massive crowd easily, earlier comments I've made on here about the seats have been about the comfort, not quantity. I still believe a little more padding wouldn't hurt, they got it right with the s stock but I don't mean to start another discussion on seats as I know quite a few on this forum have had enough of it.

PIS system is quite good, full colour display is quite helpful since it shows the colours of lines you can interchange to for those that are still new to London etc. I have queried on this thread about the fact the system can't cater to slight service alterations but that's its only downfall in my opinion. I think it's good to have a full screen display that doesn't just scroll across as if it were a dot matrix display.

Overall I agree, the aim of the petition is honestly pointless, the Aventura is a completely new design, it's almost a shame that it's premier is on crossrail because there is pressure for crossrail to work perfectly from day 1.
 

samuelmorris

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They can and did recall the 345s. Twice I believe. Recalls happen for safety reasons, not for being unreliable (which they admittedly are).

The Electrostars definitely did not have a good start. LTS had to lease other units like 317s to cover for them being so problematic and I believe ADtranz actually gave them two of the units free of charge as compensation.
For that reason, amoung countless other troubled introductions like the 458s, I don't find the current issues with 345s unexpected at all. Nonetheless, it's regrettable that it's something that a line which is about to become very high profile is going to have to struggle with.

The comments about the A/C seem unfounded, I've used 345s quite a lot and can't ever recall the A/C not being functional. It may not be as cool as that guy likes, but in general it works quite well compared to other stock.

The door close issue is fair, the doors have had issues where they detect an obstruction when nothing is there and reopen. However, I believe that to be fixed - I haven't seen it happen for a while.

The PIS has had issues but is generally more stable now, I haven't seen it crash, show a Chrome 'page cannot be displayed' error or produce a deafening scream through the speakers for a while now. The biggest issue with it is it not being customisable in the event of disruption. The 315 PIS being better in that regard is a bit comical really.

The 'increased fares' comment is a bit odd - the fares were decreased when TfL took over...

As things currently stand I believe 345s fail about 3-4 times as often as 315s. With the 315s operating in pairs, I think technically means it's only actually double. Still though, that point is valid at least for now.
The gap of 90 mins between stations I believe has happened, not sure about 90 mins, but certainly at least 60-70 that I recall. The majority of cancellations on the line are indeed attributed to train faults rather than anything else.

Sounds like that petition is hyperbole and I certainly won't be signing it, but a lot of the points made do have at least some merit. The laughing stock argument is over the top but it does refer to a serious point - TfL have a lot riding on the success of the Elizabeth line launch.
As things stand the reliability of the 345s is not sufficient to deliver a reliable service on it. Currently a fairly trivial number of 345s operate, and they do so in areas with lots of other issues that could mask the cause of delays.
The core section opens soon, requires more than twice the number of trains currently in service all for itself, units which are not yet bedded in even to the point the currently operating ones are. It's also self-contained so any delays, whether signalling, points, staff or train faults, will all come back to the same thing.
With the 12tph service frequency being brought into the core section, the current failure rate of the 345s is going to see the new service sit at 'Severe Delays' on essentially a daily basis. Who knows what other gremlins may yet lay in wait due to the ATO, new CCTV kit or the platform edge doors. Really for the Elizabeth line to be branded a success, the 345s need to be one part of the equation that just works. They don't.
That doesn't mean for a minute that a petition should be started to get them withdrawn for the same improvements that are already being worked on, that's silly. It does, however, mean that 345s will be no small part of why the Elizabeth line rollout, if it isn't delayed, is going to be a bit of a PR disaster.
Still, given the Thameslink situation, it'll probably not seem so bad. I have no doubt that even in December, punctuality of Elizabeth line in its troubled form will probably outstrip Thameslink within a fortnight.
 

Via Bank

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why are we paying increased fares for inferior trains with a poorly received reception

"poorly received reception." Quite.

In all seriousness, part of me is glad that there are so many snagging issues coming out now. Crossrail is perhaps one of the most complex operating environments you could throw at an urban commuter train: ATO, platform edge doors, interfaces between multiple signalling systems, DOO cameras, etc. With a brand new type of train, the kinds of problems we're getting are inevitable. It's better that they're known about now than being a surprise when Queen's train runs through the core.
 

Bikeman78

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As things currently stand I believe 345s fail about 3-4 times as often as 315s. With the 315s operating in pairs, I think technically means it's only actually double. Still though, that point is valid at least for now.
The gap of 90 mins between stations I believe has happened, not sure about 90 mins, but certainly at least 60-70 that I recall. The majority of cancellations on the line are indeed attributed to train faults rather than anything else.

According to Modern Railways, back in January the MTIN moving annual average for 315s was 21526. The current MTIN MAA for the 345s is 1218. Bear in mind that a technical incident is anything that causes a delay of three minutes or greater; many incidents are minor delays rather than total failures. Given that the 315s run in pairs, they are still roughly 10 times more reliable than 345s.
 

ijmad

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This might have been covered before but this thread is 84 pages long.

So a quick question, my understanding is that nearly all of the current 7 coach 345s running the Shenfield branch will be lengthened to 9 coaches for Day 1 of their operation on to the Crossrail core in May 2019. Just a few will remain 7 coach (I would guess 4 or 5 trains) and these will run the rush only services to Liverpool Street high level, before these platforms are lengthened and they too can be extended to 9 coach.

However, I wondered, when exactly will the 7 to 9 conversions happen? Are we likely to see a week long closure just before the Shenfield branch becomes part of the Elizabeth Line to do this work, perhaps a couple of days extra around the May bank holiday weekend or something?

How much work is required to add 2 more coaches to the 345s and where will the extra coaches be kept until they're needed?

Will there be a subsequent closure of the high level TfL rail platforms at Liverpool Street to lengthen and reconfigure them?
 

matt_world2004

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My understanding is the 7 car elizabeth line coaches will not be immediately lengthened they will be used for the peak time elizabeth line services into liverpool street mainline with a possibility they will be lengthened at a later date when liverpool street becomes suitable.

They can also run on the western branch of the elizabeth line until december 2019 without needing to be lengthened.
 

ijmad

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My understanding is the 7 car elizabeth line coaches will not be immediately lengthened they will be used for the peak time elizabeth line services into liverpool street mainline with a possibility they will be lengthened at a later date when liverpool street becomes suitable.

They can also run on the western branch of the elizabeth line until december 2019 without needing to be lengthened.

That's interesting... exactly how many 7 car trains will there be in service by May? Surely more than will be needed to run the peak time rush service?
 

samuelmorris

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As far as I know, 9-car units will be provided from the off in May 2019 - remember the GW through services don't start until December that year. As soon as the 'new' 9-car 345s replace the 'old' 7-car units on GE services now that everything runs through the core, the 7-car units currently in use will be lengthened in readiness for the December opening of services through from Abbey Wood out to Reading.
The last few 7-cars for the Liverpool Street high level services may end up being converted during a time when Liverpool Street is remodelled to remove platform 18 and accept 9-car trains, but at no point would there be an obstruction in weekday services to London because it simply isn't necessary.
 

ijmad

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Ah, so most of the 7s will be going back to Bombardier to become the additional stock required for full service in Dec 19. Suddenly it all makes sense, thanks.
 

samuelmorris

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Destination displays at Stratford tonight show at the bottom 'class 315 train. Departed London Liv at 21:10'

Is that new, or is someone manning the info system bored and adding extra info? It's quite useful...
 

700007

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Destination displays at Stratford tonight show at the bottom 'class 315 train. Departed London Liv at 21:10'

Is that new, or is someone manning the info system bored and adding extra info? It's quite useful...
The departed bit has appeared at the other stations on the East Side too - this is supposed to help passengers especially in disruption know exactly where their train is at. The 315/345 thing started yesterday which is a bit dodgy at the moment as it hasn't always been truthful - I believe it is supposed to be for staff mainly to help assist with any wheelchair or mobility impaired passengers (knowing exactly what carriage they need to be in and where that is situated on the platform).
 

hwl

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As far as I know, 9-car units will be provided from the off in May 2019 - remember the GW through services don't start until December that year. As soon as the 'new' 9-car 345s replace the 'old' 7-car units on GE services now that everything runs through the core, the 7-car units currently in use will be lengthened in readiness for the December opening of services through from Abbey Wood out to Reading.
The last few 7-cars for the Liverpool Street high level services may end up being converted during a time when Liverpool Street is remodelled to remove platform 18 and accept 9-car trains, but at no point would there be an obstruction in weekday services to London because it simply isn't necessary.
Some 315s are being retained till the LST high level platform works are done. The lease was extended into 2020 quite a while ago.
 

ijmad

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Some 315s are being retained till the LST high level platform works are done. The lease was extended into 2020 quite a while ago.

I wonder how the delay to the opening of the Crossrail core will affect this. It seems like the Liverpool St high level works may not get done until well in to 2020 at this rate.
 

hwl

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I wonder how the delay to the opening of the Crossrail core will affect this. It seems like the Liverpool St high level works may not get done until well in to 2020 at this rate.
The leases were extended in to 2020 at least 2 years ago.
It is all about de-risking via removing linkages were possible.
Only 6x 7 car units would need to be retained for the peak only Gidea Park -LST High Level services so the best solution is to do the conversions (and testing) in one hit rather than stop start in 2 batches with 11 and 6. Testing them ALL as 9 car is far easier before train run through Paddington.

With the 315s the precise timing of the P16-18 works matters far less
 

Jpeg

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Latest update from TFL investment programme report:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20181011-agenda-and-papers.pdf

Class 345 7-car trains are operating on the TfL Rail service between Liverpool Street and Shenfield and between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington. Some services out of Liverpool Street are still being operated by the older Class 315 trains. These will continue until the Class 345 nine-car trains are fully approved for passenger service which will also replace the seven-car trains running into Paddington.

The new depot at Old Oak Common is fully operational for driver training and is the base for Class 345 trains. The new nine-car Class 345 trains being delivered to Old Oak from Bombardier are being used to dynamically test the Elizabeth line tunnel infrastructure under the control of a new automatic train operation signalling system.

Dynamic testing of the Class 345 European train control system, needed for operation to Heathrow Airport, has continued to collect data in the first weeks of the quarter. The system is now awaiting updated train control software to progress to the next stage of testing.
 

theblackwatch

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Looks like we pay have quite a wait for 'full length' sets to appear in traffic. How many sets are normally in service on Liverpool Street services each day?
 

fat_boy_pete

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I wonder how the delay to the opening of the Crossrail core will affect this. It seems like the Liverpool St high level works may not get done until well in to 2020 at this rate.
Platform 16 & 17 lengthening blockade is still scheduled for August 2019.
 

Railperf

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Looks like we pay have quite a wait for 'full length' sets to appear in traffic. How many sets are normally in service on Liverpool Street services each day?
I was at Stratford for around 2 hrs on Saturday afternoon and i reckon around 2/3 of TFL rail services were 345's!
 

Railperf

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Not a far out guess - considering i was not actually counting the 345's v 315's
And I wasn't aware of any failures either - so maybe they are bedding in far better now. meanwhile one of the evening Class 90 services to Ipswich suffered several minutes platform delay due to the guard seemingly being unable to unlock the doors.
 
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