North Wales coast passenger count slumps 7% from 2012-3 to 2016-7

krus_aragon · 5 Nov 2018

kieron said:
The change which affected me the most over that period was the introduction of loco-hauled trains between Manchester and Holyhead. These trains operate in the path of the all-station stopper, but don't stop everywhere. This makes the timetable more irregular, and thereby makes the railway less of a practical proposition for someone travelling from, or changing at, Shotton, but I'm sure it's not a major driver for these figures.

The stopping pattern for eastbound trains from Holyhead/Bangor has drifted away from ATW's original clockface timetable, with some afternoon peak services (among others) running fast east of the Junction in a rush toward Chester, neccesitating a change of train for many commuters. A symptom of the rolling stock being stretched too thin.

ChrisC said:
The fall in passenger numbers must also have hit businesses in the holiday towns along the coast. Prestatyn, Rhyl and Llandudno must be missing out on trade from day trippers throughout the summer who can’t afford to pay the high fares. All three of these towns seem ideal destinations for day tips from the Stoke on Trent and Manchester areas, but now with no Day Return fares people will not pay over £40 for a day out. However without more capacity bringing back the Day Return fares at around £20 would only result in overcrowding. The withdrawal of the Day Return fares for this type of journey was a hefty stealth price increase.

Llandudno still seems to be filled with coach loads of holiday makers, and on event weekends the cars come in droves. Many events now have park and ride schemes run for them.

On the issue of day tripping, there's also a suppressed demand in the other direction: plenty would consider a day out shopping in Chester/Liverpool/Manchester, but the lack of cheap day return tickets* mean that the train is an expensive option.

(*There is a day return to Liverpool for the Llandudno cluster, but only saving 70p over the ₤25.30 SVR)

RailUK Forums

Andrew*Debbie · 5 Nov 2018

Parallel said:
They must be there on occasion, or maybe that’s the problem - A lot of ticketless travel and nobody there to stop it!

I've traveled more than once without seeing a guard. Maybe TfW will improve things.

CambrianCoast said:
It also doesn’t help on Sundays with seemingly silly operations like running Manchester to Chester and no through service along the coast, then having to rush a train-full of passengers from platform 5 to platform 3 where the train is already packed to the rafters usually with a 2 coach service.

Sunday service is awful. We usually stay in London and come back Monday morning. The 9:10 from Euston to Holyhead is two 221s coupled together.

Andrew*Debbie · 5 Nov 2018

Good direct service from Holyhead and Bangor to Manchester Airport would be nice.

Andrew*Debbie · 5 Nov 2018

Llandudno said:
Llandudno Junction Station is a dump

If you think Llandudno Junction is bad, come have a look at Ty Croes. It looks derelict. On the plus side Bangor is looking better.

krus_aragon · 5 Nov 2018

Andrew*Debbie said:
Good direct service from Holyhead and Bangor to Manchester Airport would be nice.

The latter is promised from December 2022: Llandudno services start running to Liverpool, Manchester (Airport) services start running to Bangor.

Reliablebeam · 5 Nov 2018

These figures have confirmed what has been discussed anecdotally by north Walians dependent on the train for some time. Some of the posters on this thread have nailed down the exact reasons for this in some detail. Maybe rose tinted specs but I always thought things showed some signs of improvement under FNW. The 175's when new were a revelation but were perhaps ultimately unsuitable for some of the services they replaced (relatively short 2/3 units, rarely doubled up, limited luggage space for holiday/ferry traffic) - the 47 + Mk2 combination was also a good 'un. This problem got worse in my view under ATW's stewardship with the Marches routes and South Wales coast laying claim to the 175's, reducing one of the few advantages the line had.

And this is before we get to the idiocy of diverting trains that go places north Walians (or those that aren't civil servants and assembly members) actually want to go through places like Shrewsbury and onto Cardiff, rather than somewhere useful, like Crewe. I also have the feeling that there is no longer such a balance between slow 'stoppers' and fasts, but I'm not a regular traveller up them parts anymore so I stand to be corrected. I would agree that opening(reopening?) a few Deeside stations would be a good start to reviving the lines fortunes but politically not sure how that would go down.

Bletchleyite · 5 Nov 2018

I certainly think the 1998 service patterns were vastly closer to what people actually wanted to do in terms of journeys. Birmingham via Stafford AIUI wouldn't be possible now pre-HS2 due to insufficient paths, but you could certainly go as far as Crewe replacing the shuttle and terminate the Cardiffs at Chester. Or, with short, gangwayed DMUs on order, an even better option would be 4 or 5 coaches along the Coast with 2 or 3 to each destination.

Phil from Mon · 5 Nov 2018

Gareth Marston said:
What I'm saying is that traffic levels on the A55 are not at the same level you find around urban areas elsewhere in the UK so there's no push factor toward rail nor is there any commuting driving growth.

But there is no hard shoulder, many of the junctions are sub standard, and it only takes a lane closure for roadworks, or a minor accident, to create total chaos for many miles.

driver_m said:
Obvious quick win for the North Wales would be to prioritise reconnecting Caernarfon. The road is a nightmare through there most of the day, and probably should reopen a few of the stations to capitalise on tourist traffic.

Work should start on the Caernarfon and Bonynewydd bypass soon, which when complete will make a huge difference. But even so, reopening to Caernarfon, and a station in Felinheli, should be a priority. Out of the box a bit, a new station near the Faenol roundabout with a shuttle bus to Ysbyty Gwynedd, could act as a huge incentive for workers and visitors, as parking there is a nightmare

krus_aragon · 5 Nov 2018

Would a Faenol - Ysbyty Gwynedd shuttle be needed? There are already four buses an hour (5C) going that way.

Phil from Mon · 5 Nov 2018

krus_aragon said:
Would a Faenol - Ysbyty Gwynedd shuttle be needed? There are already four buses an hour (5C) going that way.

Even with those 4 an hour, plus all those on other routes, parking congestion is a serious problem at many times, exacerbated in my opinion by what would be, if there was enough parking available, the admirable WG policy of making it free. If there ever was a reopening to Caernarfon then I think a shuttle from Faenol could really help.

krus_aragon · 5 Nov 2018

I remain unconvinced: the 5C buses would already outnumber an hourly train service by four to one.

Ysbyty Glan Clwyd has a dedicated shuttle bus to an off-site park & ride facility, but even that only runs every 15 minutes.

Bletchleyite · 5 Nov 2018

krus_aragon said:
I remain unconvinced: the 5C buses would already outnumber an hourly train service by four to one.

They would, but equally most people won't use a medium distance bus plus a train for a long distance trip (least of all those going on holiday *to* the area), whereas they would use a through train.

A sensible service pattern might be that with the exception of ferry connections those trains going to Holyhead at present would go to Caernarfon instead, then the Conwy Valley and a stopping Llandudno-Junction-Holyhead service could run an interworked service using 3 units to replace it, a bit like what used to run to serve the request stops.

Andrew*Debbie · 5 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
A sensible service pattern might be that with the exception of ferry connections those trains going to Holyhead at present would go to Caernarfon instead, then the Conwy Valley and a stopping Llandudno-Junction-Holyhead service could run an interworked service using 3 units to replace it, a bit like what used to run to serve the request stops.

That would have the unfortunate side-effect of ending direct service from Anglesey request stops to Chester and Crewe.

Checking....

Holyhead-Dublin Ferries depart at
02:30
02:40
08:30* (no foot passengers)
08:55
14:00
14:10
20:15* (no foot passengers)
20:30

Dublin-Holyhead Ferries arrive at

00:01
00:20
05:15* (no foot passengers)
05:45
11:30
11:50
17:45* (no foot passengers)
18:20

Depart HHD
04:25 TfW HHD, VAL, LPG, BNG ... CTR ... -- not timed for arriving ferry
04:48 VT - does not stop
05:14 TfW HHD, LPG, BNG,LLF ... CTR -- not timed for arriving ferry
05:34 TfW - does not stop
05:51 VT
06:28 TfW - All request stops
06:55 VT
07:15 TfW HHD to CRE All request stops - not timed for arriving ferry
08:05 TfW All request stops. Not timed for arriving ferry.

I'll let some one else check the rest....

Gareth Marston · 5 Nov 2018

Phil from Mon said:
But there is no hard shoulder, many of the junctions are sub standard, and it only takes a lane closure for roadworks, or a minor accident, to create total chaos for many miles.

Look at the Western Mail - the same happens on the M4 on a regular basis. I'll stand by what i say that most of the time the traffic moves more freely than on urban stretches elsewhere in UK.

Envoy · 5 Nov 2018

Mention has been made of re-connecting Caernarfon with the rail network. It looks to me that much of the former route has been built upon - see link which shows where it came off the main line near the bridge. I also note that a new by-pass is to built east of Caernarfon. I bet no account has been made about any potential future rail link that might even proceed further south to connect with the Cambrian. Anyway, if this were to happen, it would surely be impossible to get anywhere near to the centre of Caernarfon for a station. (I believe that originally a short tunnel went under Caernarfon and that this is now a road).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2083361,-4.1799858,1587m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

It is appalling that don't appear to match the trains with the ferries at Holyhead for foot passengers. Ideally, the train timetable should show which ferry would be the next departing for Dublin and who runs it. (The reverse direction should also be shown).

Bletchleyite · 5 Nov 2018

The tunnel is indeed a road, but a station could go near the Morrisons which is built on the original station site. The WHR(C) site is not the original station site, the line just passed through there.

The trackbed appears to be mostly clear and in use as a cycleway/footpath, except for the A487 being built on part of the formation north of Y Felinheli which would need to be resolved somehow.

krus_aragon · 5 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
They would, but equally most people won't use a medium distance bus plus a train for a long distance trip (least of all those going on holiday *to* the area), whereas they would use a through train.

I think you've misunderstood me. I support reopening Bangor-Caernarfon for rail use (and a station near Faenol) but was replying to the suggestion of a shuttle bus from the line to the local hospital, not advocating Bangor-Caernarfon by bus for holiday makers. I don't think that a shuttle bus from Faenol to the hospital would be worthwhile, as there's already a frequent, quick (5m) bus service running from Faenol to the hospital.

For a service pattern, as there'll be an hourly Bangor-Manchester service once the new rolling stock arrives, it seems it'd be obvious to extend this service along a reopened Caernarfon branch.

Envoy said:
Mention has been made of re-connecting Caernarfon with the rail network. It looks to me that much of the former route has been built upon - see link which shows where it came off the main line near the bridge. I also note that a new by-pass is to built east of Caernarfon. I bet no account has been made about any potential future rail link that might even proceed further south to connect with the Cambrian. Anyway, if this were to happen, it would surely be impossible to get anywhere near to the centre of Caernarfon for a station. (I believe that originally a short tunnel went under Caernarfon and that this is now a road).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2083361,-4.1799858,1587m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

The disused tunnel in Caernarfon was turned into a bypass road as there was no better use for it, but it sees little traffic. It'd be no great loss to lay tracks through it again, though the western mouth of the tunnel leads straight to the WHR station. A greater issue is the Morrison supermarket that blocks the eastern approach to the town.

Phil from Mon · 5 Nov 2018

krus_aragon said:
I think you've misunderstood me. I support reopening Bangor-Caernarfon for rail use (and a station near Faenol) but was replying to the suggestion of a shuttle bus from the line to the local hospital, not advocating Bangor-Caernarfon by bus for holiday makers. I don't think that a shuttle bus from Faenol to the hospital would be worthwhile, as there's already a frequent, quick (5m) bus service running from Faenol to the hospital.

For a service pattern, as there'll be an hourly Bangor-Manchester service once the new rolling stock arrives, it seems it'd be obvious to extend this service along a reopened Caernarfon branch.

The disused tunnel in Caernarfon was turned into a bypass road as there was no better use for it, but it sees little traffic. It'd be no great loss to lay tracks through it again, though the western mouth of the tunnel leads straight to the WHR station. A greater issue is the Morrison supermarket that blocks the eastern approach to the town.

Shall we compromise then on using the 5C as the shuttle. Extending the Bangor - Manchester to Caernarfon would also allow those who come to YG from the East by train and bus to avoid any hold ups of changing to a bus in Bangor, and might persuade more to use the train.

Fully agree with your points about Morrisons, although I can’t see any potential in extending further south. It could only ever be of use as a connection through to mid and South Wales (there is nothing of any size between Caernarfon and Pwllheli) and in reality who would use it when you can drive to Aberystwyth from Caernarfon far quicker than you could ever hope to go round the coast by train, let alone going further down any reopened link to Carmarthen (please no one re-open that can of worms here again). Far better for Pen Lleyn people to catch a train in Caernarfon for a fast(ish) service to Cardiff rather than drive as many do now.

Meole · 5 Nov 2018

Nothing of size between Caernarfon and Pwllheli - where does the WHR fit into this consideration anyway ?

driver_m · 6 Nov 2018

Why do people keep mentioning buses .... Large sections of society will just not use them, whereas they will a train or a tram. Ridership is constantly going down out of London, As an example, you want someone from North West England to go for a holiday in North Wales, most will use a car. A direct train or a simple change nearby, will mop up some of those people. Having to get a bus on top will not.

North Wales coast passenger count slumps 7% from 2012-3 to 2016-7

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