Is this just bringing York into line with other large stations with curved platforms that TPE call at? Leeds has had platform staff monitoring the doors and signalling to the guard for a while for example. It's usually one of the same 3 people I tend to see each day doing it, suggesting a similar pool of dispatchers.
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TPE Dispatch Farce at York
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Away from the West Coast and Manchester/Liverpool I believe until now the only location with dispatch staff has been Leeds which is mandatory dispatch for all services in common with Manchester Piccadilly where they also use agency staff. I think they're provided by Carlisle.
They got rid of dispatch staff at Manchester Airport a few years ago and tried to go self dispatch at Lime Street too but that was cancelled.
They got rid of dispatch staff at Manchester Airport a few years ago and tried to go self dispatch at Lime Street too but that was cancelled.
No. They're dispatched by LNER staff.
Eccles1983
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Manchester Victoria, Bolton, and Wigan North Western all have dispatch staff, I have not seen TPE platform staff at any of those locations. Northern and Virgin staff.
MDB1images
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ScotRail at Glasgow and Edinburgh.
Rest of WCML route is done by Scotrail at Haymarket Southbound only (into Edinburgh is self dispatch) and Motherwell.
Self dispatch at Carstairs and Lockerbie.
Virgin West Coast at Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster & Preston.
TPE (under Green flag/RA method of work)at Man Picc.
Self dispatch at Man Airport.
185
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Sadly, the elephant in the room arrived in the form of TPE's Carlisle outsourced dispatch in 2008, as a direct result of repeated Northern dispatch incidents at Manchester Piccadilly where, for example a Middlesbrough would be sat waiting 4 mins - whilst Northern's Rose Hill would be rung out and sent out bang on time.
Northern have a little to answer for for their behaviour which resulted in the loss of contract, however this was dwarfed by (imo) the absolute stupidity by TPE in handing it to Carlisle - within weeks the new staff were doing booked 12-hour shifts & sending trains off against red during their 11th hour of shift - not their fault, but 100% the train company's.
philthetube
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Bearing in mind signallers regularly do 12 hour shifts I am not sure you can blame it on shifts, however it can, and probably should be blamed on training.
185
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Dispatchers hours are heavily regulated like signallers, however they do a far more physically demanding job in all weathers facing no end of hassle from the punters. Couple that with some of the (former) management who insisted on them spending the bare 45 mins meal break and them being outside for the remainder, I would say they have it far, far, far worse than the bobby does in a modern box.
Generally, the 12 hour is the 'total max' shift for operational s/c staff, however general rostering for drivers/guards/dispatchers should be a maximum of say 9.30/10/10.30 - the 12 limit is considered the shift max for use in times of disruption or emergency. This was not a training issue, it was a fatigue issue - the underlying cause when a regulatory body started poking about was TPE trying to save cash and use the absolute minimum of staff and length of shift was directly blamed for the string of incidents.
Randomer
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So how are TPE justify scheduling 12 hour night shifts for this new endeavour in York if there is a fatigue risk. Or are they scheduling more frequent rest breaks when the service frequency goes down overnight?
theageofthetra
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We really are due another Clapham aren't we?
Say it how it is you know.
Ahh, yes, I see.
Milton Keynes is like that with Virgin having their own staff for their own services but everything else is LNW, I think?
Bletchleyite
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Yes, though I can't remember if LNR guards self-dispatch at MKC, I think they do at least some of the time.
They're still useless now. If we have to go into the train shed it's often a case of running around to find a dispatcher. I lost 15 minutes on an empty stock the other week because they'd forgotten us as usual.
When they had more trains running from the shed pre Ordsall chord they were literally running from the low end to the high end to deal with the Scotlands, Blackpools and Liverpools all day long. It's a more physically demanding role than signalling doing mundane repetitive tasks. I've done 12 hour dispatch turns due to staff shortage and by the end of it I was literally seeing signals floating in front of me as I sorted out the Nth HST set of the shift.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I was going to say that - if you're doing a 12 hour shift at Blea Moor it's going to be relaxing and slow (and quite boring, to be honest) compared to running around a major station continuously dispatching for 12 hours.
TBH, I don't think anyone anywhere should work 12 hour shifts in any industry other than for occasional emergency overtime ( or on-call. It's not safe and it's not healthy. 8-8.5 hours with a 0.5-1 hour break is a sensible maximum day to day shift length. Maybe there should be legislation? The other advantage would of course be to create more jobs.
Having one set if despatchers flagging away red trains and another set only handling the blue trains clearly is sub optimal.
There is also a perverse incentive that where competent staff already exist they aren't used for commercial reasons.
Fragmentation is the name of the game.
gordonthemoron
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At MKC, LNR self dispatch, Virgin services are always dispatched by Virgin station staff. Southern, if they turn up, also self dispatch
If company A employs staff then they should work for company A. Why would any company pay their staff to work for another company ? If anything this acts as an incentive for company B to not employ staff.
Ultimately, someone has to pay for it.
At my local station, only one set of TOC staff dispatches all the trains. Two TOCs run out the station. I wonder if its also down to who owns and operates the station.
Ultimately, someone has to pay for it.
At my local station, only one set of TOC staff dispatches all the trains. Two TOCs run out the station. I wonder if its also down to who owns and operates the station.
It's all down to cost. TOCs pay the station facilities owner depending on what services they provide and it's usually a commercial decision. There are some odd ones though - Network Rail providing the platform staff at Birmingham New Street for example or Cross Country only having it's own dispatch staff at Edinburgh Waverley.
There's also risk assessments involved - Northern for example self dispatch at Sheffield except for trains using platform 2C due to sighting issues which are dispatched by the EMT station staff there.
But would cost the general public more, no business is going to take a hit on profits for this. I’m not disagreeing with your idea, quite the opposite but to use the forbidden sentence, ticket price increases would follow. In my line of work if I me and 4 other engenders did 8 hours you’d have to have a second set of 5 do the other 8 or 6 or whatever. This is going to cost someone £1500 per day and that will eventually work itself into ticket prices for concerts or festivals.
Many staff prefer to work 12 hour shifts due to various reasons, in particular reducing the number of shifts at antisocial times and also to give more days off.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
2 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off (say) would reduce the effect of it, but I bet that isn't occurring with these agency dispatchers. But I just don't think people can concentrate properly on safety-critical work for 12 hours.
Llanigraham
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How insulting!
I suggest you ask some of the signallers in the likes of Crewe Junction or Severn Bridge Junct about that.
I think you've misinterpreted that and they were saying that dispatching is more physically demanding and involves mundane repetitive tasks!
If anyone thinks they have been insulted, please use the report button and do not refer to, re-publish or react to the post causing concern and we will investigate. However I see no insult here.
I am sure @LowLevel knows exactly what is involved in both roles.
Yet there are still some people (even railway-aware people) defending the current structure of the industry! Even those that are beginning to have doubts can't actually bring themselves to admit the idiocy of the way it is run...
I've signed 4 mechanical signalboxes of up to 55 levers for the last 8 years and been a slam door train dispatcher at an intercity station. With a few exceptions like Stockport signalling is by far the more sedentary task. I've visited Crewe Junction and Severn Bridge Jn and the signallers were far from run off their feet. Size isn't everything. If you'd said Heaton Norris Junction you might have a contender.
Signalling for 12 hours is mentally tiring. Train dispatching for 12 hours is both physically and mentally tiring and far, far more boring.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
My apologies but that wasn't obvious from your comment.
The RMT appear to disagree- they went on strike recently to get shifts at places like Stirling Middle increased to 12 hours from 8 and a 3 day week. It’s about safety... Personally I don’t think I’d be anywhere near sharp after about 9 hours, especially at this time of year when it’s dark all the time.
EDIT - news story from the time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-20236515
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