Passengers blocking doorways

Robertj21a · 17 Dec 2018

As we all know, there is too little space for much luggage on many trains. Blocking the doors is quite common but I doubt anything will be done until we have a serious fire or explosion where people are unable to exit.

RailUK Forums

al78 · 17 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Not an Ordinary bicycle?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4614760.stm

I can sympathise with Southern on that one, I can't see how it can be feasible to allow full size bicycles on London-Brighton trains at peak time, those trains are likely rammed full. I did see once on a cycling forum the suggestion that one could circumvent that rule by using some legal historical definition of an ordinary bicycle being a penny farthing, so modern diamond framed bicycles are not covered (it may have been tongue in cheek).

Bletchleyite · 17 Dec 2018

al78 said:
I can sympathise with Southern on that one, I can't see how it can be feasible to allow full size bicycles on London-Brighton trains at peak time, those trains are likely rammed full. I did see once on a cycling forum the suggestion that one could circumvent that rule by using some legal historical definition of an ordinary bicycle being a penny farthing, so modern diamond framed bicycles are not covered (it may have been tongue in cheek).

Yes, that was the point - "Ordinaries are banned, but Safeties are fine" - the modern bicycle is basically a "Safety bicycle", an "Ordinary" being a penny farthing

(I don't disagree with the policy itself, I'm just laughing at the amusing miswording)

12guard4 · 17 Dec 2018

I'd love to see all non folding bikes banned from any train that does not have a sprcific cycle area.

sefton · 17 Dec 2018

12guard4 said:
I'd love to see all non folding bikes banned from any train that does not have a sprcific cycle area.

There are all sorts of people and things I would like to see banned from trains - anyone who speaks, anyone using Apple's rubbish earphones, anyone eating, anyone under 30, anyone over 65, anyone who sits in an aisle seat, anyone who doesn't fit in a seat, businessmen, tourists, people who dawdle, people who stand up 10 minutes before their stop.

Don't think it will happen though.

jon0844 said:
I'm sure we've all heard of stories where bikes or cases have been put on platforms (I have no idea if people really do this, or just act big behind a keyboard).

I have in the past where it has been necessary because the owner has left their bike blocking the door and gone to sit down, rather than stand with their bike.

Matt_pool · 17 Dec 2018

notlob.divad said:
When the 319s started working the Liverpool - Manchester route. I took one with a large suitcase on my way to Derby. I got on and asked the guard where the best place to store my bag. He said there was no luggage racks, and agreed that given it was an airport train it wass rather stupid. I gather nothing has changed since.

On some of the Liverpool to Manchester Airport services (the ones that go via Warrington) I've seen 142's and 150's being used, although in general they use 156's.

Sir_Sheep · 17 Dec 2018

al78 said:
I did see once on a cycling forum the suggestion that one could circumvent that rule by using some legal historical definition of an ordinary bicycle being a penny farthing, so modern diamond framed bicycles are not covered (it may have been tongue in cheek).

Gems · 17 Dec 2018

Once had 12 bikes on a 156 many years ago. They were only going two stops so we squeezed them in. Had six dogs sprawled out in the aisles as well. Never seen so many dogs and bikes except in Bradford on a Saturday night.

matt_world2004 · 18 Dec 2018

Someone was blocked from getting on the night gwr are Ealing Broadway because a bike was blocking the door. The Train service is every two hours at night.

Bletchleyite · 18 Dec 2018

matt_world2004 said:
Someone was blocked from getting on the night gwr are Ealing Broadway because a bike was blocking the door. The Train service is every two hours at night.

I'd have simply removed the bike (and put it back on after boarding, unlike some), or if unable to do so and unable to move to another door e.g. because it was full and standing blocked the door so the train couldn't depart until its user removed it.

Presumably going to a different door was too obvious as an alternative, though? I don't believe I've ever seen a train with all the doors blocked by bicycles, and I doubt that train would be full and standing.

matt_world2004 · 18 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'd have simply removed the bike (and put it back on after boarding, unlike some), or if unable to do so and unable to move to another door e.g. because it was full and standing blocked the door so the train couldn't depart until its user removed it.

Presumably going to a different door was too obvious as an alternative, though? I don't believe I've ever seen a train with all the doors blocked by bicycles, and I doubt that train would be full and standing.

They tried moving the bike but the doors closed and the train departed before they could.

Bletchleyite · 18 Dec 2018

matt_world2004 said:
They tried moving the bike but the doors closed and the train departed before they could.

Sounds like a DOO driver needs a trip to the naughty step for closing doors when obstructed, then (or not looking back when he couldn't see properly). It's not Bank in the evening rush (where I'm amazed nobody has been killed yet by that practice).

bramling · 18 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Presumably going to a different door was too obvious as an alternative, though?

Some people just *have* to do things their way, like boarding through a particular door, travelling in a particular carriage, or sitting in a particular seat.

bramling · 18 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Sounds like a DOO driver needs a trip to the naughty step for closing doors when obstructed, then (or not looking back when he couldn't see properly). It's not Bank in the evening rush (where I'm amazed nobody has been killed yet by that practice).

You've sort of answered your own question there. It's not so much the closing of the doors which is unsafe but what happens afterwards - trains have safety features like interlocks, hustle alarms/door chimes, time delays on the closure sequence, rubber seals and doors set up so as not to be hard closing enough to cause injury, all to take care of the situation of doors closing whilst passengers are still trying to board (or alight).

The safety-critical part of the process is what happens between interlock being obtained and the train moving off, which is evidently working effectively at Bank (even though I do agree with the general point that the situation there is far from ideal).

sefton · 18 Dec 2018

Closing the doors whilst customers are boarding (or trying to) is unsafe. To argue otherwise is illogical.

mmh · 18 Dec 2018

sefton said:
I have in the past where it has been necessary because the owner has left their bike blocking the door and gone to sit down, rather than stand with their bike.

I'd really, really, really recommend against this. A few years ago, someone I know of, as they lived nearby, took offence at a passenger over some sort of argument about bags and space on a rush hour train in south London. They left the other passenger brain damaged; they are currently serving a 10 year prison sentence.

An extreme example perhaps, but you don't know how psychotic the person you're going to aggrave may be. I'd expect extreme verbal if not some physical abuse from almost anyone who discovered you'd left their luggage on a platform, right or wrong.

matt_world2004 · 18 Dec 2018

sefton said:
Closing the doors whilst customers are boarding (or trying to) is unsafe. To argue otherwise is illogical.

Its unsafe but it happens when the amount of passengers in excess of capacity are trying to board, or who are obstructed from boarding due to objects or other obstructions

jmh59 · 18 Dec 2018

So - out of interest what do you do if you open the door and such a bag falls out and bursts open all over the platform?

bramling · 18 Dec 2018

sefton said:
Closing the doors whilst customers are boarding (or trying to) is unsafe. To argue otherwise is illogical.

Illogical or otherwise, it's something which happens on a pretty regular basis every day - hence why the dispatch process doesn't depend on it not happening.

There are places on the railway system where trains would barely be able to leave the platform as at times there will always be a constant stream of people arriving.

bramling · 18 Dec 2018

mmh said:
I'd really, really, really recommend against this. A few years ago, someone I know of, as they lived nearby, took offence at a passenger over some sort of argument about bags and space on a rush hour train in south London. They left the other passenger brain damaged; they are currently serving a 10 year prison sentence.

An extreme example perhaps, but you don't know how psychotic the person you're going to aggrave may be. I'd expect extreme verbal if not some physical abuse from almost anyone who discovered you'd left their luggage on a platform, right or wrong.

Very wise words indeed. Some of the posts on this forum where people claim to have done things are bordering on irresponsible.

jon0844 · 18 Dec 2018

I agree that there comes a point where the doors need to be closed. The hustle alarm makes it clear it's time to stop boarding.

The safety critical part is checking the doors are clear before the train can move. You can't wait all day for the close doors but must wait as long as it takes for the 'right away'.

xotGD · 18 Dec 2018

Gems said:
Once had 12 bikes on a 156 many years ago. They were only going two stops so we squeezed them in. Had six dogs sprawled out in the aisles as well. Never seen so many dogs and bikes except in Bradford on a Saturday night.

LOL - Post of the day!

On topic - I think we all just need to use some common sense and have regard for our fellow travellers.

mmh · 19 Dec 2018

A report of the incident I mentioned before. Don't be heroes or vigilantes people, please.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/savage-thug-who-fractured-commuters-9704153

A thug who launched a vicious and unprovoked attack on a fellow commuter in a row over pushing on a crowded train has been jailed for 10 years.
Joe Montgomery, 29, left his battered victim with a fractured skull and a bleed on the brain after unleashing repeated punches to the head and face.
Montgomery became involved in a verbal altercation with the 45-year-old victim over alleged pushing of bags after boarding a busy train.
Angry words were exchanged between the pair and, in a matter of seconds, Montgomery suddenly and without warning physically attacked the victim.
He repeatedly punched him seven times on the side of his face and head.
As a result of the attack, the victim sustained a depressed skull fracture and haemorrhage to the brain.
Police said he was knocked out from the force of the blows and was left with life-changing injuries.
In the footage, he is standing with his back to the camera and his hands raised in the air.
The victim is in a light-coloured jacket, bending down, barely visible behind his attacker.
Montgomery, of Croydon, pleaded not guilty, but was convicted of grievous bodily harm with intent and jailed for 10 years.
Sentencing Montgomery at Croydon Crown Court, the Judge described the attack as "savage and frightening" involving "uncontrolled violence" which has meant the victim "will never be the same again".
Detective Constable Rachel Smith, of British Transport Police CID, said: "This incident is a nightmare scenario for anyone who commutes on the trains regularly.
"We are all aware that sometimes on packed trains, there may be tension between passengers and occasionally verbal disputes, but Montgomery took this to the extreme by launching a sustained and horrific attack on a fellow commuter.
"The victim has been left with life-changing injuries as a result of this attack. He had no idea when he boarded the train to work that day that an exchange of words with a fellow commuter and a few seconds of violence would change his life so dramatically.
"I am glad that Montgomery has been found guilty of this offence and been given a suitable prison sentence."

bramling · 19 Dec 2018

mmh said:
A report of the incident I mentioned before. Don't be heroes or vigilantes people, please.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/savage-thug-who-fractured-commuters-9704153

ISTR there was a fatal stabbing on a Voyager about a decade ago, in that case the victim seems to have done nothing but have his attention drawn towards a row between two people.

Some here may feel the conditions of carriage, byelaws, moral high ground, their own physique, or whatever are on their side - and may well be right - however come across some nutcase and all this may count for nothing. Like crossing a zebra crossing in front of an out-of-control lorry on the basis that “it’s my right of way”.

On a train there’s no place of safety for passengers should a situation turn unexpectedly nasty. Even staff who do have access to places of safety, and generally have conflict awareness and management training, will sometimes decide it’s the better option to let something go, frustrating though it may be.

Robertj21a · 19 Dec 2018

jon0844 said:
I agree that there comes a point where the doors need to be closed. The hustle alarm makes it clear it's time to stop boarding.

The safety critical part is checking the doors are clear before the train can move. You can't wait all day for the close doors but must wait as long as it takes for the 'right away'.

I feel I need to question this a little bit, if only to seek a bit of clarification.

I'm not at all sure that the general public has the same view as the rail staff when it comes to the hustle alarm. Rail staff seem to take the view that once the hustle alarm is activated then no further passengers should attempt to board - whereas many passengers appear to interpret the hustle alarm as 'Hurry along please, we're nearly ready to depart'. There is a difference !

al78 · 19 Dec 2018

bramling said:
Very wise words indeed. Some of the posts on this forum where people claim to have done things are bordering on irresponsible.

You can say what you want from the comfort of your house and safety of your keyboard. It is completely different being in the situation itself. I doubt most of those who claim they would take direct action would have the guts if it really came down to it.

If you really are the sort who would take direct action, make sure you are highly trained in self defence first, preferably in a martial art that has good carry over to street fighting. It is very dangerous to challenge someone in an obnoxious manner you know nothing about. It like like the situation where a motorist dangerously cuts up a cyclist, cyclist confronts motorist at traffic lights, motorist takes offence and uses car as weapon to ram cyclist off the road.

jon0844 · 19 Dec 2018

Robertj21a said:
I feel I need to question this a little bit, if only to seek a bit of clarification.

I'm not at all sure that the general public has the same view as the rail staff when it comes to the hustle alarm. Rail staff seem to take the view that once the hustle alarm is activated then no further passengers should attempt to board - whereas many passengers appear to interpret the hustle alarm as 'Hurry along please, we're nearly ready to depart'. There is a difference !

Some passengers think the hustle alarm is permission to hold the doors open to let their friends on who are getting a coffee nearby. We also have those who assume the doors will operate like a lift and re-open if blocked.

The hustle alarm means the doors are about to close. And lock. They will not re-open if there's an obstruction (but safety systems should prevent the train getting interlock).

Some passengers are idiots at the end of the day. I am not sure the railway can or should bow down to them. At best, make the hustle alarm louder and a tiny bit longer, and have flashing lights (ideally red) to make it as clear as absolutely possible.

As I said, the process once the doors are closed to ensure a safe movement of the train away from the station is what matters. Otherwise you'd never close the doors at some stations.

Robertj21a · 19 Dec 2018

jon0844 said:
Some passengers think the hustle alarm is permission to hold the doors open to let their friends on who are getting a coffee nearby. We also have those who assume the doors will operate like a lift and re-open if blocked.

The hustle alarm means the doors are about to close. And lock. They will not re-open if there's an obstruction (but safety systems should prevent the train getting interlock).

Some passengers are idiots at the end of the day. I am not sure the railway can or should bow down to them. At best, make the hustle alarm louder and a tiny bit longer, and have flashing lights (ideally red) to make it as clear as absolutely possible.

As I said, the process once the doors are closed to ensure a safe movement of the train away from the station is what matters. Otherwise you'd never close the doors at some stations.

I don't disagree with any of that - when it's looked at from the eyes of rail staff. My query related to how the ordinary passengers treat the hustle alarm. Where are they told what the hustle alarm is supposed to mean to them ?
For the many passengers used to the Tube, they will know that you have to continue to board/jam the doors with bodies or else you'll never got on a train at peak times. They are also aware that the doors can't be fully closed in those circumstances. It's highly likely they view all other trains in a similar manner.

ComUtoR · 19 Dec 2018

Robertj21a said:
Where are they told what the hustle alarm is supposed to mean to them ?

Repeated announcements both onboard and at stations; as well as being told directly by rail staff.

Robertj21a · 19 Dec 2018

ComUtoR said:
Repeated announcements both onboard and at stations; as well as being told directly by rail staff.

All I recall is something along the lines of 'Hurry along' or 'We're about to leave'. I can't recall being told that the hustle alarm means that I can't board.

Passengers blocking doorways

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