Passengers blocking doorways

[Bletchleyite]

The alarm sounds as the doors are closing. It doesn't stop when the 'leaves' start to move.

On quite a lot of stock it in fact does stop when the leaves start to move, or certainly did until PRM-TSI modifications on all 1980s and early 1990s DMU and EMU stock. But even so, the doors are factually not closing until the leaves move.

If I'm standing by a conventional door on the house and shout that I am going to close it, is the door closing? Clearly not until I start to move it towards the closed position.

SO at the point in which the alarm is sounding, the doors are in fact, moving. It's pointless and dangerous hair splitting.

It's not. To drive correct behaviour in a safety context you absolutely have to be clear and unambiguous. If there is a possibility for misunderstanding, it HAS to be removed.

What is dangerous is that it is possible to split hairs. If it is, it's also possible for there to be a genuine misunderstanding given that people have different perceptions of risk.

If you hear the alarm, move away.

Then that is what the notices etc should say.

FWIW, I genuinely don't understand why there isn't also a prominent red light, if for no reason than to help those with hearing issues. Only the Class 156 has a substantial visual indication of doors closing, and it's a flashing white strobe. In Germany it's usual to have a bulb-shaped red lamp above the door *and* on the leaf - then you could have a campaign along the lines of the successful CDL "it's fruitless if it's not orange" campaign - "if it's red - stop!" would be a good way.

The railway is just doing its usual and shouting off about passenger behaviour while not actually doing anything positive to attempt to change it. Or rather, only Merseyrail is - their new stock (and only theirs) is to have red and green LEDs around the door to indicate when it is safe to board. Why is this not standard on all new stock?

 

[mmh]

To me the issue is that passengers know it means the doors are about to close. What it clearly *doesn't* signify to people is "the doors are about to close - FROM NOW ON DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BOARD OR ALIGHT", or if does most choose to ignore that. It's the second part of that where the industry needs to do a little work IMO.

Having said that, one can make a very clear announcement "the doors are now closing, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO JOIN THE TRAIN NOW", and many will still ignore... Hence why retrospective announcements targeted at individuals are perhaps more effective, but as soon as a complaint comes in that the driver was nasty management will often tell the driver to back off in future.

Yes, there are multiple examples on here of people taking offence at being told not to do something directly by staff, for example stand behind yellow lines, don't lean out of windows etc.

I don't often travel by train any more, but I'm pretty sure the closing alarms on at least some older units, e.g. 455s and 465s sounded before the doors moved, and were silent as the door actually closed.

I don't know if they've been changed, but it's easy to see how that could be iinterpreted as "the doors are about to close, this is the last chance to board".

Whatever is done, it should be consistent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having said that, one can make a very clear announcement "the doors are now closing, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO JOIN THE TRAIN NOW", and many will still ignore... Hence why retrospective announcements targeted at individuals are perhaps more effective, but as soon as a complaint comes in that the driver was nasty management will often tell the driver to back off in future.

German U- and S-Bahn stock, as well as the hustle alarm and red light, has a clear[1] autoannouncer stating "Zurueckbleiben, bitte" before the hustle alarms even sound.

Clear, unlike the UK. We instead prefer blowing whistles at people, which themselves have their meaning diluted by being used to hurry people along rather than being "once you hear this, it's too late".

[1] Used to be the driver muttering "Zrkblbntbte" (took me months to work out what it was when I used to live in Hamburg in the 90s) but these days that has gone I think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The term "hustle alarm" really doesn't matter. I've never heard it used outside this forum, and being a train nerd I'm more observant than most using the railway.

I disagree that normal passengers don't know what it means, it's obvious. What else could it mean?

It means the doors are about to close. It has no more meaning than that other than the possible implied undertone of "you'd best jump on now".

If the railway wishes another meaning, it has to convey this clearly and unambiguously. It cannot assume that members of the public who are not safety trained and are possibly more familiar with another context where it is perfectly safe and normal to put your hand in the doors (lifts[1]) will do what you expect, and staff are out of order getting angry with people for not understanding something that the railway cannot be bothered to even tell them in most cases.

The sound doesn't even sound threatening - the German sound of a set of longer, deeper bleeps like a warning klaxon works much better to convey this meaning. Perhaps there should be two tones, one for "too late" and one for "just closing to keep the heat in".

[1] And almost any of the edge-detection-equipped stock where doors close to keep the heat/cool in, where the same sound is used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't often travel by train any more, but I'm pretty sure the closing alarms on at least some older units, e.g. 455s and 465s sounded before the doors moved, and were silent as the door actually closed.

Correct for all stock before and including the Class 158, though some or all PRM-TSI mods may have changed it, I can't remember.

I don't know if they've been changed, but it's easy to see how that could be iinterpreted as "the doors are about to close, this is the last chance to board".

Yes, that is the natural layman's interpretation particularly when you use the context of other automatic doors people are familiar with such as lifts.

Whatever is done, it should be consistent.

Absolutely.

 

[mmh]

It means the doors are about to close. It has no more meaning than that other than the possible implied undertone of "you'd best jump on now".

If the railway wishes another meaning, it has to convey this clearly and unambiguously. It cannot assume that members of the public who are not safety trained and are possibly more familiar with another context where it is perfectly safe and normal to put your hand in the doors (lifts[1]) will do what you expect, and staff are out of order getting angry with people for not understanding something that the railway cannot be bothered to even tell them in most cases.

The sound doesn't even sound threatening - the German sound of a set of longer, deeper bleeps like a warning klaxon works much better to convey this meaning. Perhaps there should be two tones, one for "too late" and one for "just closing to keep the heat in".

[1] And almost any of the edge-detection-equipped stock where doors close to keep the heat/cool in, where the same sound is used.

Having just spent about 20 minutes at a station and heard all manner of different beeps from only 3 different classes of trains I think I agree with you, and my earlier "it's obvious" take was unfortunately too biased by being an enthusiast. If 3 very modern units (700, 377 and 378) all sound and act differently, why wouldn't a passenger just think "oh all trains beep all the time these days"

I don't think I've heard it for a while, so maybe they finally got rid of it, but nonsense like the staff notification alarm things on Pendolinos don't help. If they were needed (presumably not as every other train managed without them) they should have been a recorded "staff annoucement" message, not something guaranteed to annoy and make people tune out alarms.

Interesting to hear of other countries using different tones and lights. That sounds a better approach. I have to admit even though it slightly pains me, the Stadler trams in Croydon do this well, with doorways that light up green or red, and different "positive" and "negative" tones.

Consistency and standards are still a problem of course. It seems only lipservice is paid to them at times on the railway, even when it comes to something as mundane as where door buttons are. Why do new build trains vary? There should be no excuse for that.

See, I can admit the Swiss and Stadler have built good trains, well trams, it seems. I need a lie down now

 

[NoOnesFool]

so where else to they put their stuff?

Some trains have additional storage in the vestibules for luggage, like Meridians and Coach D in Voyagers. Sadly, some people ignore the three items of luggage rule.

 

[NoOnesFool]

In the UK there by and large isn't a luggage theft issue from trains. In mainland Europe however...

I suspect the increase in ticket barriers may help by reducing the number of non-passengers on stations.

Plus the fact that we are richer than many European countries, so the desire to steal is lower.

 

[mmh]

Plus the fact that we are richer than many European countries, so the desire to steal is lower.

You've never been to Rhyl then.

 

[al78]

Plus the fact that we are richer than many European countries, so the desire to steal is lower.

I doubt it. It is inequality and entitlement/lack of morality that are factors in theft, and the UK has plenty of those.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some trains have additional storage in the vestibules for luggage, like Meridians and Coach D in Voyagers. Sadly, some people ignore the three items of luggage rule.

Very, very rare in my experience, unless you're talking people with say 5 shopping bags which is Ryanair levels of pettiness to be bothered about.

It's also a not very helpful limit - if you're on rolling stock with small overhead racks such as anything Bombardier ever built for the UK you're better off with a larger number of smaller bags than a smaller number of larger ones, because there's basically nowhere to put one "maxed out" trolley case for more than about 3-4 people per coach, whereas you can stuff the overheads full of 35 litre rucksacks or holdalls. This, FWIW, is also true on planes, which always surprised me that easyJet's one-time proposal of "as many bags as you like provided they all fit into the 56x45x25 sizer at the same time" never went anywhere - unless the security bods objected as it'd slow that down, perhaps.

That being the case it's never likely to be sensible for it to be anything other than a guide to when someone's taking the mick.

 

[221129]

Though not if obstructed.

On most units with auto close doors they will close even if obstructed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On most units with auto close doors they will close even if obstructed.

Not on Class 350s nor Electrostars (though with the former you do need to resist with some force). There's also the beam across them which if broken they will not attempt to close except if the driver/guard has pressed the button.

 

[bramling]

Not on Class 350s nor Electrostars (though with the former you do need to resist with some force). There's also the beam across them which if broken they will not attempt to close except if the driver/guard has pressed the button.

Doesn't that more apply to people alighting more so than boarding though? I've seen plenty of people get stuck from the platform side when doors have either auto-closed, or even more so when someone inside has pressed the close button without looking. There's still plenty of units where the close button just closes the door with no time delay or warning.

 

[sefton]

On most units with auto close doors they will close even if obstructed.

You are right, some of them need a good old shove to push them back, so definitely unsafe to be closing them whilst people are boarding.