Selling tickets - an offence?

Adlington · 3 Feb 2019

Section 21 of Railway Bylaws says

21. Unauthorised buying or selling of tickets
(1) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall sell or buy any ticket.[...]
(4) The sale or transfer by, or the purchase or receipt from, an authorised person in the course of his duties or from an authorised ticket machine is excepted from the provisions of Byelaw 21

I understand that "an authorised person" is a ticket-office clerk, or a guard.

Now imagine the following scenario: I buy a ticket valid for travel in a few days' time from an authorised person, but before actually starting the journey I decide I don't want to (or can't) travel. My mate is willing to go instead, so I give him the ticket and get money in return.

So I, an unauthorised person, sold a railway ticket. Did I commit an offence?

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dk1 · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
Section 21 of Railway Bylaws saysI understand that "an authorised person" is a ticket-office clerk, or a guard.

Now imagine the following scenario: I buy a ticket valid for travel in a few days' time from an authorised person, but before actually starting the journey I decide I don't want to (or can't) travel. My mate is willing to go instead, so I give him the ticket and get money in return.

So I, an unauthorised person, sold a railway ticket. Did I commit an offence?

Officially non-transferable but who knows or cares really?

furnessvale · 3 Feb 2019

dk1 said:
Officially non-transferable but who knows or cares really?

It can become a problem if people or companies hoover up cheap advance tickets, then resell them for a profit closer to, or on the day. Hence the need for such a regulation.

Jonfun · 3 Feb 2019

Technically illegal; but in reality they aren't going to send a team of plain clothes revenue inspectors in a van with blacked out windows armed with a long lens camera to catch you doing the handover.

It's more for people who start selling tickets on eBay etc.

Adlington · 3 Feb 2019

Ok, but this also means that one person cannot legally buy tickets for a group of passengers who will later individually reimburse the buyer.

dk1 · 3 Feb 2019

furnessvale said:
It can become a problem if people or companies hoover up cheap advance tickets, then resell them for a profit closer to, or on the day. Hence the need for such a regulation.

Oh I understand the regulation & need for it. I'm just saying selling it to a friend/family member is no big deal if for some reason you could no longer go. Careful though that it wasn't bought with a railcard for example. Much of the travelling public don't look beyond the origin, destination & date so wouldn't thoroughly read or understand the information on a ticket like us with a trained eye.

Re 4/4 · 3 Feb 2019

I presume some bylaw like this is needed to be able to prosecute ticket touts.

In practice I doubt it's a problem.

dk1 · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
Ok, but this also means that one person cannot legally buy tickets for a group of passengers who will later individually reimburse the buyer.

I do that all the time for others. They seem to think that if you work on the railway you know how to get better deals. Oh heck, I'm a criminal :lol:

Clip · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
Ok, but this also means that one person cannot legally buy tickets for a group of passengers who will later individually reimburse the buyer.

Erm no - or how do you think Groupsave tickets and their variants work?

Its pretty simple really - no one is going to haul you over the coals for doing both in the scenarios that you have mentioned.

However when people blatantly stand outside stations and sell used tickets for travel at a cheaper price or travelcards and the such like then it becomes an offence. Strighforward stuff

CyrusWuff · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
Ok, but this also means that one person cannot legally buy tickets for a group of passengers who will later individually reimburse the buyer.

That's certainly one interpretation, however you'd have a defence under the first part of Condition 5.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

NRCoT said:
5.1 A Ticket may only be used by the person who bought that Ticket or on whose behalf that Ticket was bought unless specifically allowed by the terms and conditions applying to that Ticket. A Ticket may not be resold to anyone else.

Bletchleyite · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
Ok, but this also means that one person cannot legally buy tickets for a group of passengers who will later individually reimburse the buyer.

It say for whom it was bought, so I can see no issue with acting as an agent in that way (informally) - but essentially the principle is that when you buy you must have in mind who you're buying for, and that person can't then change.

If the railway wanted to solve this, all it'd need to do is put names on tickets.

yorkie · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
Ok, but this also means that one person cannot legally buy tickets for a group of passengers who will later individually reimburse the buyer.

Not true. You can buy a ticket for anyone.

ianBR · 3 Feb 2019

Isn't the main reason for having the law to prevent the likes of ebay and gumtree from hosting any adverts for tickets

Otherwise people would all be selling the return portion of their tickets online - especially when a return is sometimes basically the same fare as a single.

Bletchleyite · 3 Feb 2019

ianBR said:
Isn't the main reason for having the law to prevent the likes of ebay and gumtree from hosting any adverts for tickets

Otherwise people would all be selling the return portion of their tickets online - especially when a return is sometimes basically the same fare as a single.

It's for two reasons. That's one of them, the other one is to prevent agents buying up stacks of Advances when first released and selling on at a profit.

I suspect with e-tickets being the future, names will appear on them soon enough. I doubt there will be routine ID checks, but if there is a suspicion further digging is then possible.

yorkie · 3 Feb 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I suspect with e-tickets being the future, names will appear on them soon enough. I doubt there will be routine ID checks, but if there is a suspicion further digging is then possible.

We have gone away from requiring ID for tickets. It's a ridiculous concept that caused no end of problems, because people can buy tickets for other people anyway.

Clip · 3 Feb 2019

yorkie said:
We have gone away from requiring ID for tickets. It's a ridiculous concept that caused no end of problems, because people can buy tickets for other people anyway.

Indeed or it would render the SILK process null and void which no one wants.

cf111 · 3 Feb 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's for two reasons. That's one of them, the other one is to prevent agents buying up stacks of Advances when first released and selling on at a profit.

I suspect with e-tickets being the future, names will appear on them soon enough. I doubt there will be routine ID checks, but if there is a suspicion further digging is then possible.

Most of the ticket on departure tickets I print have my surname on them on the bottom orange strip. I'm not sure if it's a machine or retailer thing and I' no idea of its purpose.

yorkie · 3 Feb 2019

cf111 said:
Most of the ticket on departure tickets I print have my surname on them on the bottom orange strip. I'm not sure if it's a machine or retailer thing and I' no idea of its purpose.

It's just the name of the purchaser, nothing more.

Adlington · 3 Feb 2019

yorkie said:
Not true. You can buy a ticket for anyone.

True, but then you cannot transfer the ticket to somebody else if you want your money back. I mean the original purchase price.

ianBR said:
Isn't the main reason for having the law to prevent the likes of ebay and gumtree from hosting any adverts for tickets

Otherwise people would all be selling the return portion of their tickets online - especially when a return is sometimes basically the same fare as a single.

This could (and should) be expressed differently. Something like (in non-legalese):
a) it's forbidden to sell valid tickets for more than the face value
b) it's forbidden to sell the ticket after the journey, including a possible return part, has started.

Elecman · 3 Feb 2019

Wasn’t there a case sometime ago where someone was possibly prosecuted for using an unused return portion of a ticker acquired by his employee for someone else and then left in a mess room for anyone to use?

Adlington · 3 Feb 2019

yorkie said:
It's just the name of the purchaser, nothing more.

Why is this needed?

yorkie · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
Why is this needed?

It isn't needed.

Adlington · 3 Feb 2019

So why is it printed?

yorkie · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
So why is it printed?

You'd have to ask the operators of those machines that print them.

geoffk · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
True, but then you cannot transfer the ticket to somebody else if you want your money back. I mean the original purchase price.

This could (and should) be expressed differently. Something like (in non-legalese):
a) it's forbidden to sell valid tickets for more than the face value
b) it's forbidden to sell the ticket after the journey, including a possible return part, has started.

What about passing on a day rover or similar ticket after you've been using it to allow someone else to use it for the rest of the day? A bit like passing on a car park ticket with some validity left on it. We've all done this and that's why sometimes you have to enter your registration number in the machine.

yorkie · 3 Feb 2019

geoffk said:
What about passing on a day rover or similar ticket after you've been using it to allow someone else to use it for the rest of the day? A bit like passing on a car park ticket with some validity left on it. We've all done this and that's why sometimes you have to enter your registration number in the machine.

It's generally against the T&Cs to do that.

Bertie the bus · 3 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
True, but then you cannot transfer the ticket to somebody else if you want your money back. I mean the original purchase price.

You can legally transfer a ticket to somebody else and get reimbursed if you are acting on their behalf. That isn't selling by any definition.

Adlington said:
This could (and should) be expressed differently. Something like (in non-legalese):
a) it's forbidden to sell valid tickets for more than the face value
b) it's forbidden to sell the ticket after the journey, including a possible return part, has started.

It doesn't need expressing differently. To be honest, anybody who isn't just a bit bored on a Sunday lunchtime and decides to start an internet discussion can easily understand what selling a ticket means.

londonbridge · 3 Feb 2019

I sold on a ticket once. I'd booked my travel for a midweek football match which involved an overnight stay but subsequently found I'd be unable to attend (the match ticket was already covered as I had a season ticket in those days). The tickets were advance singles, specifying which trains they were for I sold them to a fellow supporter for the price I'd paid, so I made no profit, the TOC get their money and the ticket was used. As per the opening posts, technically illegal I guess, but in reality no harm done.

Haywain · 3 Feb 2019

Clip said:
Indeed or it would render the SILK process null and void which no one wants.

Actually, I think most TOCs would love to get rid of the SILK process. Certainly most ticket office staff would because it's a pain to deal with.

Bletchleyite · 3 Feb 2019

Haywain said:
Actually, I think most TOCs would love to get rid of the SILK process. Certainly most ticket office staff would because it's a pain to deal with.

It would be simpler for everyone for it to be replaced with an official means of buying online for collection without a card at all at a small extra fee.

Selling tickets - an offence?

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