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Selling tickets - an offence?

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Deafdoggie

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I personally find it ridiculous that a day return is much cheaper than returning within 30 days - it is the same journey, same product, why should it cost more just because you're only going away for a day? Bring the price to the middle of both - day trippers pay a little more but all benefit from the flexibility. It will also help the local economies of smaller towns as people are more likely to stay the night

Why should I pay for flexibility I do not need? I want to go today and come back today, why should I pay for the freedom to come back in 15 days? I don't pay for parking for a week if I am going to be a day, why pay for a month return if I only want a day?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Why should I pay for flexibility I do not need? I want to go today and come back today, why should I pay for the freedom to come back in 15 days? I don't pay for parking for a week if I am going to be a day, why pay for a month return if I only want a day?

Because there is no logical reason for that discount to exist. It's simply a business model the railway has chosen.
 

Deafdoggie

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so car parks should charge for thirty days parking even if you just want one hour? Or restaurants should charge for three courses and a bottle of wine when you just have a coffee? Or supermarkets charge you for a full monthly shop, even if you just buy a pint of milk? It is in most industries. It seems very common sense to me, to charge people for what they use. Why should people be charged for a fully flexible ticket they don't need?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Again, people are confusing the idea of paying for the service you receive, with paying for the rights you get. The former would mean cost-plus pricing - which would mean most rural routes would see fares double, triple or even quadruple, and that most commuter fares would be slashed. The latter, which is actually what the railways do, results in a pricing structure similar to what we have now.
 

sprunt

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so car parks should charge for thirty days parking even if you just want one hour? Or restaurants should charge for three courses and a bottle of wine when you just have a coffee? Or supermarkets charge you for a full monthly shop, even if you just buy a pint of milk? It is in most industries. It seems very common sense to me, to charge people for what they use. Why should people be charged for a fully flexible ticket they don't need?

Making no distinction between day returns and period returns is charging people for what they use.
 

anme

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I certainly would not support a 10-20% increase in fares for the majority of journeys. You must be living in cloud cuckoo land!

Can you at least thank those of us who sometimes buy single tickets for subsidising your journey? Maybe you can even buy me a coffee or a beer when the trolley comes round. Without me, you'd be paying more for your ticket!
 

Deafdoggie

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Making no distinction between day returns and period returns is charging people for what they use.

No it isn't! Charging for the flexibility of making a journey when I do not want to, is not charging me for what I want. It is charging me more for something I do not want.
 

anme

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No it isn't! Charging for the flexibility of making a journey when I do not want to, is not charging me for what I want. It is charging me more for something I do not want.

Charging people for what they use would mean only selling single tickets, and always at the same price.
 

Bletchleyite

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so car parks should charge for thirty days parking even if you just want one hour? Or restaurants should charge for three courses and a bottle of wine when you just have a coffee? Or supermarkets charge you for a full monthly shop, even if you just buy a pint of milk? It is in most industries. It seems very common sense to me, to charge people for what they use. Why should people be charged for a fully flexible ticket they don't need?

It's not the same, because if you park for 30 days you consume a space for 30 days, if you eat three courses you get more food than if you have one course and so on. Flexibility is non-tangible, it's simply a pricing model the TOC has decided to implement. There is no practical difference in cost between taking a pair of journeys 2 hours apart and taking a pair of journeys a year apart.

The reason the railway likes this model is that it reduces ticket re-use (i.e. a form of fare-dodging). There is really no other reason for it.
 

kristiang85

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Because there is no logical reason for that discount to exist. It's simply a business model the railway has chosen.

And I'm pretty sure it costs them a lot more in staff time for clerks to explain these restrictions, add excesses, etc. which in turn goes into our fares indirectly.

It is also intensely irritating when you see the 'quick tickets' on TVMs saying a return to your destination, and you quickly click it, pay, and then find out you've been sold a day return and not an anytime return. I've been caught out a couple of times with that in the past (luckily noticing each time before boarding, but again wasting my time and ticket office time excessing it, which brings me to the point above).
 

Deafdoggie

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BR did try stopping day returns, but with the resulting loss of passengers (and revenues) they very quickly made a U-Turn, but to this day, Day Returns are not available on all routes.

It is also intensely irritating when you see the 'quick tickets' on TVMs saying a return to your destination, and you quickly click it, pay, and then find out you've been sold a day return and not an anytime return. I've been caught out a couple of times with that in the past (luckily noticing each time before boarding, but again wasting my time and ticket office time excessing it, which brings me to the point above).

I have the same problem in reverse, buy a return to discover it isn't a day return. The only solution is just one single ticket for each journey. An idea I am not opposed to.
 

Bletchleyite

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With the plan to bring in PAYG over a much wider part of the South East, that will necessitate single-leg pricing in that much wider area (which may be almost as large as the entire NSE area, if they choose the wider one). If you're going to do it for the part of the network that by far carries the largest number of passengers, going onto doing it for the rest of the network which carries far fewer is not exactly a massive barrier and has huge benefits.
 

sheff1

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With the plan to bring in PAYG over a much wider part of the South East, that will necessitate single-leg pricing in that much wider area (which may be almost as large as the entire NSE area, if they choose the wider one). If you're going to do it for the part of the network that by far carries the largest number of passengers, going onto doing it for the rest of the network which carries far fewer is not exactly a massive barrier and has huge benefits.

Can you explain what the huge benefits are in withdrawing my Sheffield to Inverness Off Peak Return and forcing me to buy a series of singles - Sheffield to Aberdeen, Aberdeen to Inverness, Inverness to Dundee, Dundee to Edinburgh, Edinburgh to Newcastle, Newcastle to Leeds & Leeds to Sheffield ?
 

IceAgeComing

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You'd have to ask the operators of those machines that print them.

It seems like a general thing that they always print with new format tickets that are booked online rather than through a ticket office: I remember noticing it on an ticket that my Mum had bought for me when I was younger and hoped that the ticket saying "Mrs xxx" wouldn't post a problem but considering that no one here seemed to notice it and that it is just the name of the person who bought it and "my Mum/Wife/etc bought the ticket" would be an entirely acceptable thing to say then I was getting a little concerned for no reason. I just checked and the tickets that I collected from the Abbey Wood ticket office (which I'm sure is all brand new kit considering the age of the station) has my name on it as well...
 

anme

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Can you explain what the huge benefits are in withdrawing my Sheffield to Inverness Off Peak Return and forcing me to buy a series of singles - Sheffield to Aberdeen, Aberdeen to Inverness, Inverness to Dundee, Dundee to Edinburgh, Edinburgh to Newcastle, Newcastle to Leeds & Leeds to Sheffield ?

I don't understand this post.
 

Bletchleyite

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Can you explain what the huge benefits are in withdrawing my Sheffield to Inverness Off Peak Return and forcing me to buy a series of singles - Sheffield to Aberdeen, Aberdeen to Inverness, Inverness to Dundee, Dundee to Edinburgh, Edinburgh to Newcastle, Newcastle to Leeds & Leeds to Sheffield ?

Sorry, by "single-leg pricing" I mean (and they do in the context of the proposed PAYG scheme) that there would be no discounts for making a return journey (and singles reduced accordingly to make it revenue neutral), not that it would mandate splitting.
 

sheff1

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Perhaps I have misunderstood, but I thought the PAYG/single leg pricing regime means the opportunity to break ones journey overnight on the outward and multiple times (over a period one month, if required) on the return would be lost. If that is the case, I can see no option other than to buy separate tickets for each section which would inevitably bump up the cost of a journey such as the one I described. Certainly, on the existing Oyster PAYG network if you break a same day journey you are charged two (or more) separate fares which total more than the end to end fare.
 

Bletchleyite

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Perhaps I have misunderstood, but I thought the PAYG/single leg pricing regime means the opportunity to break ones journey overnight on the outward and multiple times (over a period one month, if required) on the return would be lost. If that is the case, I can see no option other than to buy separate tickets for each section which would inevitably bump up the cost of a journey such as the one I described. Certainly, on the existing Oyster PAYG network if you break a same day journey you are charged two (or more) separate fares which total more than the end to end fare.

Making multiple overnight breaks of journey on a single ticket is so niche that, while I'm sure it's of value to the tiny number of people who do it, I don't think it is necessary to even consider it in any new system if not considering it provides any benefit e.g. of simplification. Same day breaks of journey are a very common use case (e.g. to pop to the shops between trains, which may or may not involve getting the next possible train) and I believe those should be permitted on all tickets, Advances included. One overnight BoJ is common enough to allow it. Beyond that it is extremely niche.

For what it's worth, though, I am not opposed to retaining the ability to purchase a return ticket, but it would simply be priced at twice the relevant single fare. The benefit of doing so would continue to be the month long validity. That is not incompatible with single leg pricing - the core of which is simply the principle that there is no discount for making two journeys on the same ticket.

Personally, I'd make long-distance singles valid for either two or five days, which would give you better terms on the outward than you presently have other than an Anytime. You can't viably break a PAYG journey, but then in that case a paper ticket may make more sense, just as there are use-cases in London where PAYG is better avoided in favour of a paper Travelcard.
 

sheff1

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You can't viably break a PAYG journey,

Which is exactly why I am unconvinced a network-wide move to PAYG, as you suggested, would be a good thing. Obviously, if paper (or other media) tickets allowing BoJ were to remain it wouldn't matter, but I get the impression that, in some quarters at least, it is felt PAYG should replace existing arrangements and not complement them.
 

PeterC

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It seems like a general thing that they always print with new format tickets that are booked online rather than through a ticket office: I remember noticing it on an ticket that my Mum had bought for me when I was younger and hoped that the ticket saying "Mrs xxx" wouldn't post a problem but considering that no one here seemed to notice it and that it is just the name of the person who bought it and "my Mum/Wife/etc bought the ticket" would be an entirely acceptable thing to say then I was getting a little concerned for no reason. I just checked and the tickets that I collected from the Abbey Wood ticket office (which I'm sure is all brand new kit considering the age of the station) has my name on it as well...
Not quite related but back in BR days seasons sold to women were overprinted with a large letter "W". I can't remember if it went to court but there was certainly at least one case in the papers of a man pulled up for using a ticket that his wife had bought for him.
 

Bletchleyite

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Which is exactly why I am unconvinced a network-wide move to PAYG, as you suggested, would be a good thing. Obviously, if paper (or other media) tickets allowing BoJ were to remain it wouldn't matter, but I get the impression that, in some quarters at least, it is felt PAYG should replace existing arrangements and not complement them.

My suggestion wasn't nationwide PAYG, rather nationwide single leg pricing. Having reread my posting I don't think I made this clear, sorry.
 

PeterC

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Making multiple overnight breaks of journey on a single ticket is so niche that, while I'm sure it's of value to the tiny number of people who do it, I don't think it is necessary to even consider it in any new system if not considering it provides any benefit e.g. of simplification. Same day breaks of journey are a very common use case (e.g. to pop to the shops between trains, which may or may not involve getting the next possible train) and I believe those should be permitted on all tickets, Advances included. One overnight BoJ is common enough to allow it. Beyond that it is extremely niche.

For what it's worth, though, I am not opposed to retaining the ability to purchase a return ticket, but it would simply be priced at twice the relevant single fare. The benefit of doing so would continue to be the month long validity. That is not incompatible with single leg pricing - the core of which is simply the principle that there is no discount for making two journeys on the same ticket.

Personally, I'd make long-distance singles valid for either two or five days, which would give you better terms on the outward than you presently have other than an Anytime. You can't viably break a PAYG journey, but then in that case a paper ticket may make more sense, just as there are use-cases in London where PAYG is better avoided in favour of a paper Travelcard.
With the current PAYG scheme in London break of journey is covered, at least in part, by capping.

With validity I remember that singles were valid for 3 days and returns for 3 months when I used the train to travel to school in the early 60s. I could buy a return on the way home rather than queue in the morning rush and risk getting lines for being late. They cut this back during the 60s for local journeys in the London area as too many uncollected tickets were reused.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I don't think that's quite true.....
Well, they have reduced a number of (Period) Super Off-Peak and Off-Peak Singles to around 60% of the equivalent return. But for Off-Peak Day Singles these are almost entirely only 10p or £1 less than the equivalent return.

It's not perfect single leg pricing, but it's certainly a lot better than most other operators.
 

IceAgeComing

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I've experienced an case in Glasgow where the cheapest option was to buy an Off Peak Day Return for a journey since they don't seem to sell Off Peak Singles on that route (it was something in the Glasgow surburban network; I think it was to Westerton or Maryhill or somewhere near Garscube because I wanted to watch my uni cricket team play a game I wasn't picked for: I remembered it when I was lazy and in a hurry and got a train from Charing Cross to Queen Street and the single was 15p more expensive than the return) - which struck me as being a little silly but I imagine that there are reasons for that.
 
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