Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

Foggycorner · 2 Mar 2019

Chester1 said:
The plan for doubling up 331s was for West Yorkshire services in the peaks, with them being run as single units off peak. It seems that Northern have come to the conclusion that it would be overkill. By switching 4 coach 331s to Yorkshire they would free up double the number of 3 coach 331s for the North West. If that is the new plan then it is not clear how they will be used.

There is demand for 6 coach EMUs through Bolton but the service would need to be carefully chosen. It would be cheap to extend the platforms on the Bolton line to 6 coach length but Salford Crescent would be very expensive. A single 319 or 323 would be adequate for them. The simplest solution would be to double up the Northern Connect service to Blackpool. If the 4 coach 331s go to the North West then the other Piccadilly-Bolton service would be the next best option (using double 323s). With short platforms at Salford Crescent and being the less desirable station, I can't see any Bolton-Victoria services being run by 6 coach sets.

6 coach EMUs are probably inevitable for the Piccadilly-Bolton services within the next 10 years because the Castlefield capacity shortage will limit services to 2tph (excluding pick up / set down TPE services). Its easy to forget that a 323 has more seats than a double pacer and only 10% fewer than a 319. Both could be used too e.g. 319s for Victoria and 323s for Piccadilly services.

Salford Cresent is already able to take 6car trains just not quite long enough to take 8car

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deltic08 · 2 Mar 2019

42626 said:
Is the instruction not to hammer the 319s across Northern or just Manchester-Preston? Could it be because the great extension lead isn't installed yet?

More likely to be because they are knocking on 40 years old and cannot be hammered anymore without falling down on the job. Make them last as long as possible.

Foggycorner · 2 Mar 2019

deltic08 said:
More likely to be because they are knocking on 40 years old and cannot be hammered anymore without falling down on the job. Make them last as long as possible.

were did you do maths 1990 to 2019 is not 40 years its only 29

Bertie the bus · 2 Mar 2019

42626 said:
Is the instruction not to hammer the 319s across Northern or just Manchester-Preston? Could it be because the great extension lead isn't installed yet?

What would be the point of hammering a 319 between Manchester and Preston? They are running to DMU times which they can achieve easily. Hammering might relieve the boredom of the driver and give any enthusiasts on board a thrill but it would just mean the service waiting longer at stations for time.

Chester1 · 2 Mar 2019

Foggycorner said:
Salford Cresent is already able to take 6car trains just not quite long enough to take 8car

I was thinking of Central when I wrote it! Thanks for pointing it out! Central is restricted to 4 coach units and the Ordsall Chord junction and signals prevent the planned westward platform extensions. Extending eastwards would be much more expensive. Using 319s for stopping services that run to Victoria and double 323s or 331s for faster services and running them through Piccadilly will probably be the right balance in the long term.

deltic08 · 2 Mar 2019

Foggycorner said:
were did you do maths 1990 to 2019 is not 40 years its only 29

University.

I thought the first batch was built in 1986.

I did say knocking on 40 years old which could be 35 years. I wasn't too far out. 29 years is still old units.

a_c_skinner · 2 Mar 2019

Chester1 said:
Central is restricted to 4 coach units and the Ordsall Chord junction and signals prevent the planned westward platform extensions.

That is a pretty foolish state of affairs considering what a recent addition the Chord is.

Class 170101 · 2 Mar 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
TPE has gone for all-5-car units with no doubling up for their new trains - much more sensible.

Disagree with you on that one, as a 10 car doesn't fit at Manchester Airport. Presumably whilst a five car Class 397 has more seats than a four car Class 350 an 8 car Class 350 has more seats than a five car Class 397.

Bevan Price · 2 Mar 2019

Bertie the bus said:
I don’t care. We’re not talking about entering them in a drag race. Knocking maybe 2 minutes off Blackpool – Manchester is of no importance. Nobody would notice and it wouldn’t either free up additional paths or permit better utilisation of units.

The current timetable is written for Sprinters -- no need for electrics to over-exert themselves to keep schedule. But a late-running 319 did reach 96 mph south of Bolton on my only "electric" trip so far - but all in vain as we were stopped waiting for a free platform in Salford Crescent....

Greybeard33 · 2 Mar 2019

Chester1 said:
I was thinking of Central when I wrote it! Thanks for pointing it out! Central is restricted to 4 coach units and the Ordsall Chord junction and signals prevent the planned westward platform extensions. Extending eastwards would be much more expensive. Using 319s for stopping services that run to Victoria and double 323s or 331s for faster services and running them through Piccadilly will probably be the right balance in the long term.

According to the Sectional Appendix, Salford Central Platforms 1 & 2 (on the Salford lines) are 136m and 140m. So very nearly long enough for a 6-car 323 (140.4m), especially considering the doors are at thirds.

I believe you are referring to the new (not yet in use) platforms on the Liverpool and Ordsall Chord lines. There are no plans for Northern EMUs to use those platforms.

Chester1 · 3 Mar 2019

Greybeard33 said:
According to the Sectional Appendix, Salford Central Platforms 1 & 2 (on the Salford lines) are 136m and 140m. So very nearly long enough for a 6-car 323 (140.4m), especially considering the doors are at thirds.

I believe you are referring to the new (not yet in use) platforms on the Liverpool and Ordsall Chord lines. There are no plans for Northern EMUs to use those platforms.

I think TfGM still thinks they existing platforms are too short, they want to extend them and add 3 platforms. I thought normally platforms are at least 5m longer than rolling stock? Extending all platforms to allow 6 coach EMUs would require funding even if in low tens of millions.

I don't think there is the demand for 6 coach EMUs from Preston to Victoria. The Castlefield bottleneck will limit services to Piccadilly and Oxford Road which will continue to be more popular stations. Bolton-Victoria has Wigan and Blackburn services too. 319s or 323s on Preston-Victoria and 769s on Wigan-Victoria via Bolton will be a significant improvement.

An issue with 6 coach units is platform length south of Piccadilly and Victoria. When Stalybridge is rebuilt (again) and wired will the bay platform for terminating services from Victoria be long enough? Hazel Grove would be another choice but that would reduce flexibility for timetabling because Woodsmoor and Davenport cannot fit 6 coaches. Manchester Airport station timetabling relies on a lot of double stacking and 6 coach units would reduce options.

Chris125 · 3 Mar 2019

A new Rochdale-Blackburn via Bolton cabride has been posted showing the completed electrification:

nw-sparks · 3 Mar 2019

Greybeard33 said:
I believe you are referring to the new (not yet in use) platforms on the Liverpool and Ordsall Chord lines. There are no plans for Northern EMUs to use those platforms.

Not yet in use, not yet started, not yet planned . . .

Don't hold your breath.

PN27 · 3 Mar 2019

Bertie the bus said:
2. They are slightly quicker than 319s which on most routes is of no relevance whatsoever.

Their acceleration and braking performance is substantially better. Don't turn your nose up at this- over 10 stops, the marginal savings add up. I've read elsewhere that the Hatfield service relies on 323 performance; if that route were switched to 319s, an extra diagram would be required to maintain the half hourly frequency.

Greybeard33 said:
According to the Sectional Appendix, Salford Central Platforms 1 & 2 (on the Salford lines) are 136m and 140m. So very nearly long enough for a 6-car 323 (140.4m), especially considering the doors are at thirds.

A 6 car 185 formation is 142.5m, and these have been happily calling at Salford Crescent since their introduction.

thealexweb · 3 Mar 2019

T

Chris125 said:
A new Rochdale-Blackburn via Bolton cabride has been posted showing the completed electrification:

An impressive video. It shows a lot of wires east of Victoria. Is that the 800 yards done?

Greybeard33 · 3 Mar 2019

PN27 said:
A 6 car 185 formation is 142.5m, and these have been happily calling at Salford Crescent since their introduction.

My post was about Salford Central not Salford Crescent.

deltic08 · 4 Mar 2019

PN27 said:
Their acceleration and braking performance is substantially better. Don't turn your nose up at this- over 10 stops, the marginal savings add up. I've read elsewhere that the Hatfield service relies on 323 performance; if that route were switched to 319s, an extra diagram would be required to maintain the half hourly frequency.

Wrong line chum. I think you mean Hadfield.

LNW-GW Joint · 4 Mar 2019

thealexweb said:
T
An impressive video. It shows a lot of wires east of Victoria. Is that the 800 yards done?

Last time I looked, the wires into P1/2 bays at Victoria were still not up.
There's also some construction work still going on on P1.

Ken H · 4 Mar 2019

deltic08 said:
Wrong line chum. I think you mean Hadfield.

man picc to hatfield on a 323. hmmm.

LOL The Irony · 4 Mar 2019

Ken H said:
man picc to hatfield on a 323. hmmm.

I hope they have some sort of diesel traction to get them there unless they want to go the roundabout way via Scotland :lol:

Ken H · 4 Mar 2019

LOL The Irony said:
I hope they have some sort of diesel traction to get them there unless they want to go the roundabout way via Scotland

wouldn't south down WCML, north london line and ECML be quicker

td97 · 4 Mar 2019

Object caught on overhead wires at/near Salford Crescent. First occurrence of OLE-related disruption?

Jozhua · 4 Mar 2019

td97 said:
Object caught on overhead wires at/near Salford Crescent. First occurrence of OLE-related disruption?

Perhaps! I'm guessing it's related to the bridge on the footpath overhead. Maybe they could do with installing a more permanent solution to ensure objects don't get thrown on to the tracks than the temporary fencing...

Ken H · 4 Mar 2019

Jozhua said:
Perhaps! I'm guessing it's related to the bridge on the footpath overhead. Maybe they could do with installing a more permanent solution to ensure objects don't get thrown on to the tracks than the temporary fencing...

Was it very windy in Manc today. Was it flying debris?

Inox · 4 Mar 2019

hmm. Just turned up at Central for my train, then left and went back to work.

Weird that what appears to be every Northern service appears to be delayed on their site - even those in yorkshire. Wouldn't have expected impact to be that broad.

Ken H · 4 Mar 2019

National rail website reckons it will be back to normal by 1700....

Red18 · 4 Mar 2019

Mogster said:
As there’s been discussions about the 319s hardly stunning performance, will they actually get anywhere near 100mph on the Preston - Bolton - Manchester route?

There is a 75mph blanket speed restriction on the Up and Down Bolton lines between Salford Crescent and Euxton Junction so not just yet.
They just about get to 100 between Leyland and Wigan NW.

thealexweb · 4 Mar 2019

Red18 said:
There is a 75mph blanket speed restriction on the Up and Down Bolton lines between Salford Crescent and Euxton Junction.

In this post it implies a 319 reached 96mph in passenger service...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...r-electrification.66879/page-325#post-3904035

Geeves · 5 Mar 2019

The 75mph restrictions were removed once testing and paperwork by NR was completed last week.

Red18 · 5 Mar 2019

Geeves said:
The 75mph restrictions were removed once testing and paperwork by NR was completed last week.

t

Ah, nice one. Thanks for the info.
I'm on annual leave at the mo' so no doubt I'll see that when I'm back on the job next week.

Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

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