Goldromans
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Still no sign of a path for set 3 on RTT. A sign that we might not see the set in the first week of March, as had been expected?
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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion
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Ah, OK. Best call down to Aberdeen for a pack of Rowies before I set off then. At least my buns will be harder than anyone else’s when the fight starts.
My query was really, I suppose, based on the fact that Scotrail Advance Firsts used to be a very tight quota up until now. It still is on 170 services, but not on HST services. Presumably then, it’s just a case of hardest buns and sharpest elbows to get a First seat if an HST becomes a 170.
Stoney1979
Member
I suspect the main focus at the moment will be getting the "classics" fully up and running just so there are services that run, and reducing overcrowding across the network. Those are the things that get the headlines in the mainstream press and bite with the politicians, who evidently don't know a refurb from their elbow.
The refurbs seem almost like the cherry on the cake now and, in fact, may cause more overall problems than they solve what with the yet-more training required on them.
Ironically, under the current circumstances, I could understand Abellio NOT wanting the refurbs to come along too quickly or too many at a time to mess up the "classics" introduction! (which seems to be going reasonably well).
The refurbs seem almost like the cherry on the cake now and, in fact, may cause more overall problems than they solve what with the yet-more training required on them.
Ironically, under the current circumstances, I could understand Abellio NOT wanting the refurbs to come along too quickly or too many at a time to mess up the "classics" introduction! (which seems to be going reasonably well).
VioletEclipse
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Although hopefully they will be refurbished by then. So we'd hope at least.
Stoney1979
Member
That's been discussed in a fair amount of depth upthread - dispensations are relatively easily available.
Maybe not if one refurb coach with an upgraded loo is spliced into each set. Could enough special coaches be done in time to stop the rest of the trains turning into pumpkins?
jagardner1984
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More generally I’d be astonished if our rail fearing politicians were standing up next January and saying “the reason you are all waiting on a platform / standing today is because the perfectly good train you sat on last week is in the siding over there, because of a regulation I signed off on.”
Whatever the rights and wrongs of universal access for PRM passengers, there will be exceptions made. Particularly given certain routes (ScotRail / EMT) have particular concentrations of non compliant stock, which hasn’t entirely been their fault.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of universal access for PRM passengers, there will be exceptions made. Particularly given certain routes (ScotRail / EMT) have particular concentrations of non compliant stock, which hasn’t entirely been their fault.
chuff chuff
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No sure how you get the two different door systems to work.
Stoney1979
Member
Indeed. Being careful to avoid going off thread, the point is that the HST "classics" seem likely to be with us for some considerable time to come. May as well get used to them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Could they do *part* of the work (accessible bog, PIS, seating layout) and come back to do the doors later? Might be easier to get a derogation based on one aspect (which could perhaps be mitigated by way of staff to operate the doors for those needing it) than all of it? Window bars would alleviate the risk of decapitation from leaning out which is the other reason for wanting rid.
Of course, there are UIC standards for door control, and on t'other side of the Channel an ageing slamdoor (autocloser plus 5km/h door blocking) coach can couple quite happily to and work with a modern sliding door coach. But we can never manage anything quite that sensible in the UK.
How about temporarily fitting an actuator that runs off the air supply? (assuming the new ones don't.) We just need a dozen or so vehicles with the upgraded doors and bogs but adapted to work off whatever power is in the existing trains.
I never thought I would be suggesting an engineering solution to a Scot!
Rail Blues
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They don't need to do anything of the sort, merely poont oit that the Roscos have had decades to get this sorted and have failed to do so, not the government's circus or the government's monkeys. Scotrail in particular knew the score when they took on the HSTs, knowing they'd have to get them done to a tight to unrealistic deadline even before wabtec started making a meal of things.
If they get carte blanche to keep running non PRM compliant stock indefinitely or even for anythimg mre than a few months after the deadline, then the disability rights lobby will be up in arms and rightly so and the press narrative will be 'government letting their corporate mates off the hook at the expense of passengers with disabilities.'
Goldromans
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I believe all the work is connected in various ways, meaning the door/toilet mods need to all be done at the same time.
James James
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The UIC standard actually has multiple "levels" (UIC-13 vs UIC-18), and having any carriage with only UIC-13 apparently results in autocloser/5km/h-blocking behaviours along the entire train: IIRC there's no continuous lock with UIC-13: it only sends a shorter door close signal, whereas you need full UIC-18 to have a continuous doors-stay-locked signal. At least the Swiss Railways very strongly recommend not doing this kind of mixing if at all possible, primarily because many years ago - on a curved platform - there was an accident where someone did open the doors after the train had started moving, on a train with a mix of carriages.
Which doesn't excuse the UK situation... but on the continent, the ageing stock can cause a reduction in safety for the entire train, and it's hard to tell if you'd get some similar issues trying to make the UK carriages interoperable.
MisterT
Member
And for that reason, the UIC door control mode is nowadays usually replaced/extended with at least TB0 door control mode. It is basically still UIC mode, but this automatically keeps the doors locked at a standstill, until the release command is given, which introduces another safety measure to refrain the passengers from deboarding the train while the train is, for example, waiting for a signal to clear.
In older international trains without TB0 mode available, we had to manually give the door lock command to keep the doors closed.
Less and less trains in Western Europe are running with these kind of door control systems. Most trains are using a full door interlock system, with only just a few (international) trains using the old and obsolete standards.
In older international trains without TB0 mode available, we had to manually give the door lock command to keep the doors closed.
Less and less trains in Western Europe are running with these kind of door control systems. Most trains are using a full door interlock system, with only just a few (international) trains using the old and obsolete standards.
I saw the Aberdeen train at Dunblane this morning was a rammed two car 158. I’m amazed Scotrail are not getting far more flak for this dismal inter city service.
Rail Blues
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They are in the real world, it is just that there is a degree of excitement that HSTs are getting repurposed. I would suggest that folk with their enthusiast goggles on aren't representative of passengers as a whole and it will be a cold day in hell before they'll admit this is a bad idea badly executed. I need to travel from central Scotland to Aberdeen for work and there's no way I'd risk the Scotrail service at the moment.
I used to complain to Scotrail about my daughters miserable journey to uni in a crammed 3 car 170 on a Sunday when there were spare 170s lying around. Now they provide a 2 car to serve Europe’s Oil capital from Scotland’s biggest city. More capacity and comfort in an Edinburgh tram! The HST plan is not looking great and I hope Transport Scotland and Abellio are duly held to account on it.
Journeyman
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I've been saying this right from the start, and have been regularly slated for it, but thus far I've seen nothing to suggest it hasn't been an utter shambles.
Just passed both refurbished HST at Haymarket depot sitting idle ! No doubt some reason but from the passenger perspective insult to injury!
Shortage of train crew for the refurb diagram today sadly and other is using for training
Highlandspring
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43135 loss of power and has had to be assisted. It’s still sitting there now. First proper (ScotRail) HST failure on the main line in passenger service.
Highlandspring
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Oh yes, and I forgot to add that the assistance is another HST set! Get out the long bar....
And let's hope they remember the detent pin...
And the detonators....
Highlandspring
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I’m sure between the drivers, the fitter and the DTM they’ll manage it safely.
My post was intended to be a humorous reference to the HST emergency coupling video on YouTube where the narrator says "detent pin" more times than you'll probably ever hear again in your life
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