GWR Class 800

irish_rail · 8 May 2019

northernbelle said:
The set was low on fuel so was stabled at Totnes as it wasn't certain it would make Laira on the fuel available - so a depot error rather than a fault with the train as such.

The video of the rescue I saw showed the formation making good progress - I suspect 6 engines for 19 coaches equated to just over 'half power' overall, so quite workable in a rescue scenario.

You are right; the coupling problems are not fine and dandy. But the solution is to fix the issue, not run excessively long trains to avoid having to solve the source of the issue.

Yes, but the amount of extra drivers now being recruited for Plymouth just to shuttle 5 car sets to and from laira to couple and uncouple, each costing 60k a year , not to mention all the additional customer hosts etc to cover both 5 car sets between Plymouth and London on approx 30k a year each I'm not convinced if the economics stack up and would imagine 9 cars running less than full would be far more cost effective than the farce that awaits us in December when every service to Cornwall will split / join.....

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Bletchleyite · 8 May 2019

irish_rail said:
Yes, but the amount of extra drivers now being recruited for Plymouth just to shuttle 5 car sets to and from laira to couple and uncouple, each costing 60k a year , not to mention all the additional customer hosts etc to cover both 5 car sets between Plymouth and London on approx 30k a year each I'm not convinced if the economics stack up and would imagine 9 cars running less than full would be far more cost effective than the farce that awaits us in December when every service to Cornwall will split / join.....

This seems a complex operation. Why aren't they just uncoupling one and leaving it in the station somewhere to couple to the next London bound one? Is there no suitable siding?

Mag_seven · 8 May 2019

bnm said:
Drafts.

Looks like Reading commuters are going to be in for a big shock especially during the peak when they can't just turn up at Padd and join the first class 800 that happens to be leaving the station! I can see a lot of people being over-carried to places such as Chippenham, Swindon and Bristol Parkway during the first week or so of the new TT.

bnm · 8 May 2019

Mag_seven said:
Looks like Reading commuters are going to be in for a big shock especially during the peak when they can't just turn up at Padd and join the first class 800 that happens to be leaving the station! I can see a lot of people being over-carried to places such as Chippenham, Swindon and Bristol Parkway during the first week or so of the new TT.

Serve em right!

swt_passenger · 8 May 2019

Mag_seven said:
Looks like Reading commuters are going to be in for a big shock especially during the peak when they can't just turn up at Padd and join the first class 800 that happens to be leaving the station! I can see a lot of people being over-carried to places such as Chippenham, Swindon and Bristol Parkway during the first week or so of the new TT.

Well the intention has been public knowledge for about 4 years now, but I guess even if they hand out leaflets in the trains for the next 6 months people will still get overcarried...

Bletchleyite · 8 May 2019

Mag_seven said:
Looks like Reading commuters are going to be in for a big shock especially during the peak when they can't just turn up at Padd and join the first class 800 that happens to be leaving the station! I can see a lot of people being over-carried to places such as Chippenham, Swindon and Bristol Parkway during the first week or so of the new TT.

Pity now. The place for Reading commuters is 12-car fast EMU services. TBH I'd choose the EMU anyway, at least the seats don't give me back pain by Slough.

Master29 · 8 May 2019

irish_rail said:
Just a quick update on coupling and uncoupling operations at Plymouth (admittedly anecdotal and not conclusive).
Today 9 minute delay on the Golden Hind at Plymouth due to coupling issues. Yesterday, same "prestigous" train cancelled altogether at Plymouth due to inability of two trains to couple. Saturday at least 3 different couplings/ uncouplings at Plymouth experienced delays of at least 10 minutes due to further problems.....
So I will await the usual apologists to tell me that this is all fine and dandy and why should passengers in the west get 9 car trains which will run less than full in Cornwall. However if things carry on the way they are i can see the airlines and coaches taking a lot of business away from the railway on this route.
As a colleague pointed out to me, surely it would make far more sense to operate pairs of 5 car trains on routes to say Cardiff and bristol running all day as 10 car trains giving the core great western routes high capacity trains whilst using the 9 cars on the " intercity " route to the far west.....

I often think that the directors of both the Dft and Agility all seem to live in the Great Malvern and Worcester areas and have special dispensation on allocations of 9 car units. These trains are GWR`s Leyland Fleetline bus compared to the HST as the routemaster. There are eerie similarities.

DannyMich2018 · 8 May 2019

irish_rail said:
Yes, but the amount of extra drivers now being recruited for Plymouth just to shuttle 5 car sets to and from laira to couple and uncouple, each costing 60k a year , not to mention all the additional customer hosts etc to cover both 5 car sets between Plymouth and London on approx 30k a year each I'm not convinced if the economics stack up and would imagine 9 cars running less than full would be far more cost effective than the farce that awaits us in December when every service to Cornwall will split / join.....

It's quite funny but certainly on a GWR Class 800 the seating capacity between 2- five car Class 800s and one 9-car Class 800 is almost the same-(as you've got two wasted cabs) and a longer train than an HST- hence the many platform extensions, so despite the flexibility the longer length has no extra capacity than a 9 car!

irish_rail · 8 May 2019

DannyMich2018 said:
It's quite funny but certainly on a GWR Class 800 the seating capacity between 2- five car Class 800s and one 9-car Class 800 is almost the same-(as you've got two wasted cabs) and a longer train than an HST- hence the many platform extensions, so despite the flexibility the longer length has no extra capacity than a 9 car!

Agreed but you could justifbly run it as a ten car all day long between pad and Cardiff and bristol without any complicated coupling and uncoupling on route and leave the 9 cars for the South West.

jimm · 8 May 2019

Master29 said:
I often think that the directors of both the Dft and Agility all seem to live in the Great Malvern and Worcester areas and have special dispensation on allocations of 9 car units. These trains are GWR`s Leyland Fleetline bus compared to the HST as the routemaster. There are eerie similarities.

And I often seem to think that you and others simply do not want to grasp what I have told you on several occasions now about the allocations of nine-car and five-car IETs on the Cotswold Line.

Exactly how many more times do you have to be told that 60 per cent of Cotswold Line services are worked by five-car IET sets? And which busy times of the day/week the nine-car sets can be seen? On trains that, er, used to be worked by HSTs.

DannyMich2018 said:
It's quite funny but certainly on a GWR Class 800 the seating capacity between 2- five car Class 800s and one 9-car Class 800 is almost the same-(as you've got two wasted cabs) and a longer train than an HST- hence the many platform extensions, so despite the flexibility the longer length has no extra capacity than a 9 car!

So you think the platform extensions are all about 2x5 formations, do you? In some places that may be part of the equation, but in the case of places like Hanborough and Stonehouse, the existing platforms were pitifully short for anything other than a two or three-car dmu and GWR had long wanted to do something about lengthening them anyway.

reddragon · 8 May 2019

Mag_seven said:
Looks like Reading commuters are going to be in for a big shock especially during the peak when they can't just turn up at Padd and join the first class 800 that happens to be leaving the station! I can see a lot of people being over-carried to places such as Chippenham, Swindon and Bristol Parkway during the first week or so of the new TT.

I am sure when 100 people activate the emergency alarm on each train they'll soon get the message!

The trains that stop at Reading will be rammed, the ones that don't will be empty. That idea only works for peak extra trains for long distance commuters. GWR will soon revert to all trains stopping at Reading as it is the biggest single source of custom on the whole of the GWR, they'd loose too much revenue.

Anyway who is this Reading commuter? Most who board at Reading arrive by a GWR train from elsewhere so the weird hatred of the supposed Reading commuter only exists in the eyes of fantasists, not GWR who are there to make money and would not want to loose trade on connecting services!

Kite159 · 8 May 2019

reddragon said:
I am sure when 100 people activate the emergency alarm on each train they'll soon get the message!

The trains that stop at Reading will be rammed, the ones that don't will be empty. That idea only works for peak extra trains for long distance commuters. GWR will soon revert to all trains stopping at Reading as it is the biggest single source of custom on the whole of the GWR, they'd loose too much revenue.

Anyway who is this Reading commuter? Most who board at Reading arrive by a GWR train from elsewhere so the weird hatred of the supposed Reading commuter only exists in the eyes of fantasists, not GWR who are there to make money and would not want to loose trade on connecting services!

Funny how the existing trains which skip Reading don't appear to be empty when they pass Reading on route to Swindon.

The commuters will start to learn to avoid certain trains, changing their preferred option if required.

supervc-10 · 8 May 2019

Or do what normal people do, and look at the display board on the platform to make sure that the train there calls at their station? It's not hard...

cactustwirly · 8 May 2019

reddragon said:
Anyway who is this Reading commuter? Most who board at Reading arrive by a GWR train from elsewhere so the weird hatred of the supposed Reading commuter only exists in the eyes of fantasists, not GWR who are there to make money and would not want to loose trade on connecting services!

My point exactly!
Now where's the like button?

The 1728 PAD - BRI should be stopping at Reading IMO

Mag_seven · 8 May 2019

supervc-10 said:
Or do what normal people do, and look at the display board on the platform to make sure that the train there calls at their station? It's not hard...

But when you have been used to just jumping on any train that states its destination as "Swansea", "Bristol Temple Meads" because they all currently call at Reading is going to mean a change in behaviour.

reddragon said:
GWR will soon revert to all trains stopping at Reading

All trains - really?

Ethano92 · 8 May 2019

I'm guessing it's about timing improvements but why can't all trains just call at Reading? correct me if I'm wrong but on HS1 don't all trains call at Stratford Intl and Ebbsfleet Intl, its like a metro service between PAD and Reading that is shared with long distance commuters ran by intercity trains.

I guess there may genuinely not be enough demand but I thought Reading was the largest interchange hub out of London so its certainly attractive to have all Paddington trains call there.

cactustwirly · 8 May 2019

Mag_seven said:
But when you have been used to just jumping on any train that states its destination as "Swansea", "Bristol Temple Meads" because they all currently call at Reading is going to mean a change in behaviour.

All trains - really?

But the removal of stops at Reading shouldn't be detrimental to connections and capacity through Reading.
I don't get the obsession with skipping Reading, there isn't a huge time penalty, and the congestion around Reading means that they won't be travelling very fast through the station anyway.

cactustwirly · 8 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Pity now. The place for Reading commuters is 12-car fast EMU services.

In an ideal world, where we have magic path trees

Mag_seven · 8 May 2019

cactustwirly said:
I don't get the obsession with skipping Reading, there isn't a huge time penalty, and the congestion around Reading means that they won't be travelling very fast through the station anyway.

The station and its approaches were remodelled to eliminate congestion and allow high speed running through it. I'm sure GWR (and possibly NR?) will have modelled the new TT to ensure its robust.

Clarence Yard · 8 May 2019

Master29 said:
I often think that the directors of both the Dft and Agility all seem to live in the Great Malvern and Worcester areas and have special dispensation on allocations of 9 car units. These trains are GWR`s Leyland Fleetline bus compared to the HST as the routemaster. There are eerie similarities.

That’s a bonkers comparison, considering the technology in an IET.

The allocation of 9 car sets is more down to physical limitations on some routes than alleged personal preferences. 10 cars can’t go everywhere and the loadings on some services or some parts of the diagram (which can’t be easily swapped out) require a 9, not a 5.

As for splitting and joining at Plymouth, only the portions that are starting or finishing the day should be coming or going to Laira. The rest should be sticking around Plymouth station for their next working. As I have stated before, there are severe limitations at Long Rock that preclude easily stabling 9 car sets there.

swt_passenger · 8 May 2019

Clarence Yard said:
As for splitting and joining at Plymouth, only the portions that are starting or finishing the day should be coming or going to Laira. The rest should be sticking around Plymouth station for their next working. As I have stated before, there are severe limitations at Long Rock that preclude easily stabling 9 car sets there.

Seems as though GWR aren’t getting the message through to some of their staff then...

Cletus · 8 May 2019

Ethano92 said:
I'm guessing it's about timing improvements but why can't all trains just call at Reading? correct me if I'm wrong but on HS1 don't all trains call at Stratford Intl and Ebbsfleet Intl, its like a metro service between PAD and Reading that is shared with long distance commuters ran by intercity trains.

I guess there may genuinely not be enough demand but I thought Reading was the largest interchange hub out of London so its certainly attractive to have all Paddington trains call there.

There are a number of services that omit Ebbsfleet in the mornings.
eg 0806 from Ashford http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W00490/2019/05/09
final service(?) 1011 from Ashford http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W00623/2019/05/09

reddragon · 8 May 2019

Mag_seven said:
But when you have been used to just jumping on any train that states its destination as "Swansea", "Bristol Temple Meads" because they all currently call at Reading is going to mean a change in behaviour.

All trains - really?

Nobody looks at the boards, you just go for the next fast and change at Reading. For a while the west country trains did not show Reading, but everyone got on them anyway as we all know they stopped at Reading and they have space to get on. That is space to get on, not a seat as commuters jump on the last minute, whereas long distance travellers are there well in time awaiting their platform to be put up.

The trend has been to reduce the number of trains not stopping at Reading, many went in December 2017 because of the need to avoid overcrowding. My local station had trains that skipped Reading during the peaks, but they left empty, so everyone had to cram onto a Turbo to get to Reading. I loved them when going to Paddington, an empty coach in the peaks! They now all stop at Reading and are much busier. This was because of severe overcrowding on other services, of which the GWR once had most of the top 10.

The reality is with capacity constraints most or all trains need to stop at Reading. You also need to remember that most real Reading commuters, that is those who commute to / from Reading come from the West, so if trains don't stop, GWR loose out.

I travelled on the last train that didn't stop at Reading, a HST. The guard and station announcements were continuous 'this train does NOT stop at Reading', but still in the rush people missed that call as they arrived just in time to jump on.

irish_rail · 8 May 2019

Clarence Yard said:
That’s a bonkers comparison, considering the technology in an IET.

The allocation of 9 car sets is more down to physical limitations on some routes than alleged personal preferences. 10 cars can’t go everywhere and the loadings on some services or some parts of the diagram (which can’t be easily swapped out) require a 9, not a 5.

As for splitting and joining at Plymouth, only the portions that are starting or finishing the day should be coming or going to Laira. The rest should be sticking around Plymouth station for their next working. As I have stated before, there are severe limitations at Long Rock that preclude easily stabling 9 car sets there.

And I take your point about 9 cars at long rock being too big but there is no reason why everything coming off laira and north pole cannot be formed of 9 cars.

Bletchleyite · 8 May 2019

reddragon said:
I don't get the obsession with skipping Reading, there isn't a huge time penalty, and the congestion around Reading means that they won't be travelling very fast through the station anyway.

To provide some sort of quality of journey for true InterCity passengers by preventing trains being crowded out, just like happens with MKC and Watford Junction.

You could (for another thread) also do it by way of compulsory reservations, but it wouldn't be a good use of seating capacity to do so.

Clarence Yard · 8 May 2019

Not enough 9 cars. 800

irish_rail said:
And I take your point about 9 cars at long rock being too big but there is no reason why everything coming off laira and north pole cannot be formed of 9 cars.

Not enough 9 cars. Also load 10 doesn’t work at Paignton so the get 9 car diagrams.

irish_rail · 9 May 2019

Clarence Yard said:
Not enough 9 cars. 800

Not enough 9 cars. Also load 10 doesn’t work at Paignton so the get 9 car diagrams.

Not enough 9 cars. Says it all really........

Master29 · 9 May 2019

Clarence Yard said:
That’s a bonkers comparison, considering the technology in an IET.

The allocation of 9 car sets is more down to physical limitations on some routes than alleged personal preferences. 10 cars can’t go everywhere and the loadings on some services or some parts of the diagram (which can’t be easily swapped out) require a 9, not a 5.

As for splitting and joining at Plymouth, only the portions that are starting or finishing the day should be coming or going to Laira. The rest should be sticking around Plymouth station for their next working. As I have stated before, there are severe limitations at Long Rock that preclude easily stabling 9 car sets there.

OK, A bit of a joke about Great Malvern and Worcester directors but that there are not enough 9 car IET`s stands even by your own admittance.
It`s not such a bonkers comparison when you think about it. The Fleetline was also very "advanced" for it`s time. The Routemaster (HST) was meant as an interim design. The DMS was brought about as a result of a reshaping programme as is the IET. They were both tried and tested designs but once put into practice encountered many problems not foreseen. Oh and poor building quality. Sound very much alike to me.

Master29 · 9 May 2019

reddragon said:
I am sure when 100 people activate the emergency alarm on each train they'll soon get the message!

Anyway who is this Reading commuter? Most who board at Reading arrive by a GWR train from elsewhere so the weird hatred of the supposed Reading commuter only exists in the eyes of fantasists, not GWR who are there to make money and would not want to loose trade on connecting services!

So all these suited types who plough on to the IC services I fantasize ( am actually on) around are coming back from their hols in Wales and the South West perchance? Can`t remember that many brief cases in Newquay or Carmarthen when last at either.

II · 9 May 2019

47271 said:
What about unreserved coaches?

Unreserved carriages (or at least, the last to be reserved) are currently:

Coach D on 5-car services
Coaches D, G, and J on 10-car services

9-car services are a bit more difficult to predict whilst issues with the reservation system are resolved, but generally you're best off trying F, G, and J. Paper labels are often (but by no means always) put on these services.

GWR Class 800

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