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CrossCountry voyagers due for a referb?

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mmh

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There seem to be a lot of people who assume a refurbishment means rip it apart and start again. Virgin's P

@Jozhua for train czar! ;)

The Voyagers are smelly, dingy and luggage don't fit. Gimmicks like reservation screens and at-seat radio doesn't work. Rip it out and refit with bright modern stuff.

And while we're at it, the XC Turbostars need their interiors fixing up too. Too many rips and rattles. Or probably replacing with a newer longer DMU to reduce overcrowding both ends of Birmingham-Stansted.
 
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Jozhua

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There seem to be a lot of people who assume a refurbishment means rip it apart and start again. Virgin's P

Well, what are the alternatives that would deal with some of the difficulties faced in the current interior? The "luggage" racks certainly aren't fit for purpose.

I mean some new seats would be a good start, but a lot more is needed to bring them up to scratch.
 

mmh

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Well, what are the alternatives that would deal with some of the difficulties faced in the current interior? The "luggage" racks certainly aren't fit for purpose.

I mean some new seats would be a good start, but a lot more is needed to bring them up to scratch.

My apologies for my post being truncated for some reason - it was quite long and addressed your points. I'll reply again later but from a computer rather than a phone!

Sorry to all - I'm not deleting the mis-post as doing so would create a confusing hole in the conversation.
 

pt_mad

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There seem to be a lot of people who assume a refurbishment means rip it apart and start again. Virgin's P

Well, what are the alternatives that would deal with some of the difficulties faced in the current interior? The "luggage" racks certainly aren't fit for purpose.

I mean some new seats would be a good start, but a lot more is needed to bring them up to scratch.
It's quite possible any refurb might mean keeping the seats themselves with only reupholstering them.

After all, some BR stock is still going around with the original seats. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe even the ex SWT 'pigs' have kept their original seats despite a refurb.

What was the actual reason why the MK4s had the mallard seats rather than keeping the originals?
 

Bletchleyite

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe even the ex SWT 'pigs' have kept their original seats despite a refurb.

No, they aren't the originals, they're I think Chapman seats fitted for the GatEx refurb.

What was the actual reason why the MK4s had the mallard seats rather than keeping the originals?

Because the originals made ironing boards look good - like everything else about the Mk4 they were very much designed down to a price.

Interestingly I can't find an online photo showing the originals.
 

pt_mad

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Because the originals made ironing boards look good - like everything else about the Mk4 they were very much designed down to a price.
And compliant new seats for a Voyager also might have similarities to an ironing board in terms of firmness?

Perhaps they could just paint the existing plastic on the seats to remove the yellow. Is the structure of the existing seat actually a problem/that bad? Or just the colour of the plastic and marks/stains?
 

Bletchleyite

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The trouble with painting plastic is that within a few weeks they'll be scratched to bits. Northern, if they are paying any attention, should now be noticing this.
 

pt_mad

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The trouble with painting plastic is that within a few weeks they'll be scratched to bits. Northern, if they are paying any attention, should now be noticing this.
But surely stains or discoloration isnt reason enough to replace every seat on a fleet when there are sprinters around with original seats in?
 

pt_mad

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The Voyager seat is the same as in a Pendolino though isn't it? Is it a problem there?
 

tbtc

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Wonder what peoples thoughts are on what a hypothetical refurb might look like?

Personally, I'd probably tear out the whole interior and work on making it more spacious! Probably make the seats thinner and a more basic design that's less likely to catch dust and grime, but still have high headrests, fold down tables, etc. Something similar to most modern airline seats.

Also would lower the luggage rack to make it more possible to store larger items in, with small barriers at the bottom perhaps to reduce the risk of said larger items falling out! This would free up a lot of space in the cabin, between the seats and in the luggage racks so they can be used for larger items.

Would reduce the size of the tables (along with slightly thinner seats) to allow for an extra row or two, and increase the legroom an inch or so between the seats so people are less inclined to take up two for their legs! Also work towards getting rid of the windowless seats, or at least reducing their severity.

Obviously the toilet situation isn't ideal either, they could do with a full refit!

Fold down seats in the vestibules would make a massive difference as well I'm sure, especially for people only on for one stop.

Some nice adaptive LED lighting to brighten up the cabin in the day, and create a softer, dimmer light and night, similar to modern planes would be good.

Be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts, especially people who may have experience/knowledge in this kind of stuff!

All sounds nice (more seats and more legroom) but they are knocking on twenty years old and have done some huge mileages in that time.

There must come a time when any refurb (which means taking each unit out of service for a period, on a TOC that sees people standing for much of the day as it is) becomes more complicated/ expensive/ time consuming than just ordering some bi-modes (e.g. 802s that show clear evolution from the 220/221s)

Might be better to just run the Voyagers into the ground for a few more years because any refurb would probably mean securing a future for them over the next decade, and I don't think anyone can guarantee that - there's not a lot of routes Voyagers can be cascaded onto (crayonist stuff about putting them on routes run by 75mph stock where crumple zones would be real waste of space and end-doors not ideal).

Essentially, if you want to do more refurbishment than a lick of paint then that means accepting Voyagers on XC into the 2030s - as Harry Enfield's character would say "is that what you want, because that's what'll happen..."
 

Jozhua

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My apologies for my post being truncated for some reason - it was quite long and addressed your points. I'll reply again later but from a computer rather than a phone!

Sorry to all - I'm not deleting the mis-post as doing so would create a confusing hole in the conversation.

Yeah sorry, didn't mean to be so aggressive sounding, my post was just a bit direct as a concerned occasional XC user ;)
 

Jozhua

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Why are refurbs done so infrequently? We have a car that's a couple years younger than a voyager that we are considering replacing (nevermind re-upholstering) because the interior is scuffed up, etc. Now imagine almost two decades of near constant use for a train, it's pretty grim.

Obviously trains are specialist bits of kit and due to their hefty price-tag, stay in service longer. However, for the amount customers are paying for fares and the fact XC are running trains nearly full for the whole journeys there should be more than enough for a fleet refurb by now...
I feel like due to a nearly nationwide shortage of rolling stock, refurbs have to be done quickly, which probably pushes the price up considerably compared to a slower rolling refurbishment program...
 

pt_mad

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I do sometimes wonder at what point a rolling stock shortage on a particular route would become a sort of major priority, where it needed to be addressed as an urgent case. I'm not for one second advocating XC is in this situation by the way. But if you had a random TOC where a certain number of their services on a route at similar times were so full people were left behind, whether additional stock would be sourced as a sort of urgent matter. Or whether it'd be a case of franchise obligations met so make do and have to get different services?
 
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jagardner1984

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I think a big part of it is how profitable the franchises are. In data I could find, in 2011 South West Trains made a £47million profit, whilst Cross Country lost £30million. Given a lot of that is based on increased passenger growth, there was therefore much better case for investment in SWT than at XC, no matter what the overcrowding situation.

As you say, so long as the franchise spec has been met. With a bit of logic at DfT, XC could have been a simple IET follow on order. As it is, more passengers will suffer well into the next decade whilst we ponder and waste more public money on what was clearly obvious years ago, XC requires more/better stock.
 

sprinterguy

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Ah yes, I was thinking of the original layout where they are at the Standard class cab end. What is in there now?
Catering trolley storage, circuit breakers (or some sort of electrical cabinet) and the Train Managers' area (Sorry for the delayed response, I was away over the weekend).
I do sometimes wonder at what point a rolling stock shortage on a particular route would become a sort of major priority, where it needed to be addressed as an urgent case. I'm not for one second advocating XC is in this situation by the way. But if you had a random TOC where a certain number of their services on a route at similar times were so full people were left behind, whether additional stock would be sourced as a sort of urgent matter. Or whether it'd be a case of franchise obligations met so make do and have to get different services?
The one thing that is currently being communicated openly about the Crosscountry direct award is that increasing capacity is the top priority. What form that might take is open to speculation.
 

supervc-10

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I think there is probably a fair amount of pent-up demand for XC. It's such a miserable experience much of the time people prefer to take alternatives, as I've mentioned myself doing further up this thread.

I think the same thing is going to happen with TPE too, when the new stock comes in with longer trains and more seats people will be more likely to take the train, which then just fills it up again. I'm hoping that TPE will be able to extend their trains out to 6-car where possible and not end up in the same situation as the XC franchise has been.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the same thing is going to happen with TPE too, when the new stock comes in with longer trains and more seats people will be more likely to take the train, which then just fills it up again. I'm hoping that TPE will be able to extend their trains out to 6-car where possible and not end up in the same situation as the XC franchise has been.

This is true. The situation is better than last time - at least there is a capacity increase. A 3-car 185 has less capacity than a 3-car 158 by a significant margin, which is why it was all so stupid last time - there was serious overcrowding near enough from day one.
 

jagardner1984

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It seems so short sighted though. Surely you’d build capacity based on the last 10 years growth (or more) into any order for the next 10 years.

Replacing like with (almost) like seems positively insane.

The Voyager replacement would I imagine require very significant SDO to allow a proper train length for the route. With paths through The core at a premium, longer services and platform extensions need to be a priority now to not further stifle growth on XC routes.
 

jagardner1984

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I calculate a 8 Car Voyager at about 185m.

Is there a database somewhere which lets you search platform lengths ?
 

sprinterguy

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What routes couldn't take a doubled up Voyager?
Indeed, off the top of my head I can't think of any stations regularly served by Crosscountry inter-city services south of Edinburgh that can't handle 8 x 23 metre/7 x 26 metre carriages. It's only when train lengths get up to 10 x 23 metres that the occasional complication arises.
I calculate a 8 Car Voyager at about 185m.

Is there a database somewhere which lets you search platform lengths ?
Platform lengths are all contained in the Network Rail sectional appendices, but trawling through those for every platform served by Crosscountry would be a long winded task! Sorry I can't be of more help.
 

cjmillsnun

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I can't think of one high speed collision in UK where seating was criticized. Why is it all of a sudden seats like IC70 aren't safe anymore?

Look at the accident reports involving HSTs (Southall, Ladbroke Grove, Ufton Nervert) and you will find criticism of seat performance.
 

hwl

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I can't think of one high speed collision in UK where seating was criticized. Why is it all of a sudden seats like IC70 aren't safe anymore?

The plastic used in the plastic and GFRP backed BR seats from the 1970s to early 1990s degrades over time losing strength and fracture toughness so they shatter far more easily than they did when new.

It doesn't just effect high speed rolling stock, SWT and Southern replaced all the seats in their 455s too.
New seat design was praised at Grayrigg (390) and Oxshott (SWT 455 vs flying cement mixer) for performing better than old seating designs and reducing casualties.
GNER and FGW replacing all their HST seating wasn't done just to spruce up the interior.

Ditto retrofitting laminated safety glass (all done very quietly).
 

Plethora

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I think there is probably a fair amount of pent-up demand for XC. It's such a miserable experience much of the time people prefer to take alternatives, as I've mentioned myself doing further up this thread.

I think the same thing is going to happen with TPE too, when the new stock comes in with longer trains and more seats people will be more likely to take the train, which then just fills it up again. I'm hoping that TPE will be able to extend their trains out to 6-car where possible and not end up in the same situation as the XC franchise has been.

Can confirm, I now fly to Exeter from Mcr in preference to the 'XC Experience' . Tends to be marginally faster/cheaper as well. Good rolling stock would likely reverse that situation.
 

Deafdoggie

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Can confirm, I now fly to Exeter from Mcr in preference to the 'XC Experience' . Tends to be marginally faster/cheaper as well. Good rolling stock would likely reverse that situation.

I don’t think a refit would make them faster or cheaper
 

cactustwirly

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What routes couldn't take a doubled up Voyager?

Reading would be an issue, platform 3 definitely can't take a double Voyager, and slotting one in between stoppers could be a challenge (platforms 13-15B)
So they would have to use platforms 7-9, right in the way of GWR IC traffic
 
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