Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

The 379s will probably have to be kept unless alternative 4-car stock can be found anyways. Greater Anglia PR could put a spin on it as the 379s are to serve lines they have never seen / don't see regular service on, meaning it is still an upgrade regardless:

• London Liverpool Street to Hertford East
• Wickford to Southminster
• Manningtree to Harwich Town

Also what's the situation with the following routes:

• Witham to Braintree
• Colchester to Colchester Town
• Thorpe-le-Soken to Walton-on-the-Naze

To my understanding Witham to Braintree can't take any more than 8 cars which means it cannot take the 10 car 720s (which are roughly equivalent to a 12-car 321). This means peak time workings would have to be reduced to 5-car 720s (6-car 321s). How exactly is this to be resolved? Similar situation with the Walton-on-the-Naze branch which has a couple of direct trains into London every weekday which are 8 coaches. I don't see this going down favourably well. Would 8 coach 379s have to work these particular peak time services with 720s only used outside of the peak? One solution as such but would involve a lot of complex diagramming and considerably higher mileage than now.

This does seem like a really big screw up on Greater Anglia's part and their bidding team.

One would hope that if the 379s are kept that fairly quickly they get an interior modification, removing the catering base, first class and most of the luggage racks.

The fear would be that they get a comprehensive "upgrade" to 3+2 throughout to match the other stock

12 carriage trains run on the Braintree branch using SDO Units.

700007 said:

The 379s will probably have to be kept unless alternative 4-car stock can be found anyways. Greater Anglia PR could put a spin on it as the 379s are to serve lines they have never seen / don't see regular service on, meaning it is still an upgrade regardless.

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I'll repeat what I've said a few times on this thread and other Greater Anglia thread.

The official line from Greater Anglia about the rolling stock changes at stations, on social media is now:
"We are changing every train over the next two years"

Even if you ask them about if they are replacing every train with brand new ones they repeat that line which clearly indicates that either some stock is staying and running on services it never ran before, or additional second hand stock is coming in to replace stock leaving.

This does seem like a really big screw up on Greater Anglia's part and their bidding team.

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Don't tar everyone in GA with the same brush, there are some people who told GA the issues with the bid and the rolling stock strategy but unfortunately those who were pitching the bids to the DFT were experienced bid managers and numbers and theory based people, but lacked in-depth operational experience in my opinion and as others have said before, the operational side were not really consulted on the bid.

Why wouldn't they keep the refurb 321 went on one and they are brand new inside

theking said:

Why wouldn't they keep the refurb 321 went on one and they are brand new inside

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Don't like they myself, bad ride, poor build quality, rattles, electric sockets that don't work, awful passenger information system that is unreliable, poor air conditioning, overpowering lights.

They needed a refurb but it almost feels like GA gave someone a brief list of everything that they wanted to be done without any real detail and then it was done as cheaply as possible. I know it wasn't like that but that is what it felt like.

A 360 for me is vastly better in every way.

F Great Eastern said:

Don't like they myself, bad ride, poor build quality, rattles, electric sockets that don't work, awful passenger information system that is unreliable, poor air conditioning, overpowering lights.

They needed a refurb but it almost feels like GA gave someone a brief list of everything that they wanted to be done without any real detail and then it was done as cheaply as possible. I know it wasn't like that but that is what it felt like.

A 360 for me is vastly better in every way.

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Plenty good enough for a branch line shuttle though.

F Great Eastern said:

Don't like they myself, bad ride, poor build quality, rattles, electric sockets that don't work, awful passenger information system that is unreliable, poor air conditioning, overpowering lights.

They needed a refurb but it almost feels like GA gave someone a brief list of everything that they wanted to be done without any real detail and then it was done as cheaply as possible. I know it wasn't like that but that is what it felt like.

A 360 for me is vastly better in every way.

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I don't mind them but my main gripe is seats (but let's not talk about that), the sockets which can't be used anymore, the doors that rattle really badly when passing another train and the air conditioning can be really poor especially during the summer. It has like this humidity feeling inside which makes travelling on then disgusting sometimes.

700007 said:

I don't mind them but my main gripe is seats (but let's not talk about that), the sockets which can't be used anymore, the doors that rattle really badly when passing another train and the air conditioning can be really poor especially during the summer. It has like this humidity feeling inside which makes travelling on then disgusting sometimes.

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I once travelled in First Class on an Advance which was only £2 more than a normal ticket and it was more like third class. It was subbing for a Class 90 set and there was no air-conditioning working and it was like a sauna with the door closed and I had no choice but to sit in a two across airline seat, with no table and not even a window, just a panel to the left of me. There was no passenger information to know where I was going, I couldn't see where I was going, I couldn't charge my phone, I got coffee cups spilled all over my suit from the table across the aisle luggage falling on top of me due to the rough ride. The ride quality was so bad and the shaking up and down and side to side at speed that I was worried for first time in my life on the GEML.

I've been on them a few other times and honestly I found the standard class seats poor, the ride quality shocking, the doors to be rattly and pretty much everything from the air-conditioning to the passenger information system being woefully unreliable and the plug sockets to be sectioned off the whole time. They look nicer and more modern and cleaner and less dated than the old 321s and the seats are a tiny bit better than the shocking angle of those, but overall I'd still put a 360 and a non Renatus 321 ahead of them, in these summer months, in any 321 convoy of Renatus and non Renatus I'll pick the non refurb every time as you avoid the humidity issue.

The Renatus project and the initial mock-ups for me were excellent, the problem is the whole thing just screams like it was done as cheaply as possible rather than selecting components for their quality, but then again considering the fact that these units probably have a limited future it's no surprise that the ROSCO was scrimping on every penny it could.

The Renatus units are equally as unpopular with drivers. The brakes are a bit hit and miss when the re-generation cuts in and out, the air-con is woeful in the cab and when you pass another train the door seal comes loose and the wind noise is deafening until you go back past another train and it seals again.

Braintree fits 12-car trains using UDS (hence these services I believe have to run with 321/4s at the front and rear as I don't think the /3s are fitted with it?
With 720s that'll just be SDO, should be fairly straightforward.

I don't hold any hope that any plans for bringing in other units apart from the new stock have been made. As far as I can tell GA are sticking to their guns and when new trains don't fit or aren't available, sucks to be us I guess.
That seems very pessimistic but as yet I don't have any evidence to the contrary. Fortunately with no immediate takers for any of the cascaded stock apart from the 170s, as long as the 755s enter service promptly (which doesn't seem too unlikely) I can't see any issue retaining the old stock longer, assuming that like most other TOCs in the country, the necessary derogation against PRM is granted.

As for the Renatus units, they look the part but they're no substitute for actual new units. Although it'd be a colossal waste for them to be scrapped immediately after the refurbishment, they're probably only good for another decade's use.

As dk1 suggested, fine for branch line use, but on the mainline they will undo the 'new train' vibe. Very poor quality finish and as stated, the A/C is a little iffy, most of them have the plug sockets covered up and the ones that don't still aren't functional, and the door issue remains. Theoretically GA will also breach PRM-TSI compliance by using them as so few of the information displays work, they will fail compliance on that front. Why the opportunity was not taken to replace the displays with ones that actually work during the refurb I don't know. If a company goes bankrupt for producing products that are too sub-standard, the solution is not to contract someone else to manufacture more units to the same spec, but that's what they did.

The regen braking is also horrendous, the worst I've ever seen on a unit that isn't explicitly faulty, it's no wonder the drivers don't like them very much. The seats aren't great but in the world of 700s and 800s, they're not too bad. I still prefer them to the originals.
Especially in summer I will actively seek out a Renatus unit over a regular 321, or even a 315, because I still find them more pleasant to travel on, but compared to a 360 or 720, they are a pretty sorry excuse for a 'new train' and I imagine GA will want to see the back of them sooner rather than later.

The 360s will not be hanging around I would say unfortunately from what I've heard. Their reliability figures have dropped since Abellio have decided to water down Siemens direct involvement with them as far as full service maintenance contract is concerned and I doubt that this will change with the plan being that everything at Illford will be Bombardier maintained and I know from industry sources that Angel Trains really wanted them to be maintained by Siemens to continue to get the class leading performance figures of other Desiro fleets. Of course, money talks however and if they have nowhere else for them to go then they may consider an extension.

I do agree that the 321 seats are better in the refurb but other than a fresh lick of paint and some new panels inside, that's the only improvement I can really agree to. If you look at the refurbishment that FGE did to the 321s early in their franchise, which whilst dated now, was top quality back in the day and what has done now (all be it a heavier refurb) the contrast couldn't be bigger. On a cool day a Renatus unit is okay for me but really on a warm day I avoid them like a plague. And if I happen to be on a First Class advance and one subs for a 90 I normally sit in standard class. Ridiculous but it avoids the sauna like cubicle conditions.

About information systems - companies often go with what they know or the cheapest option even when it makes little sense. Irish Rail had a batch of commuter trains with passenger information that barely work and poorly maintained by the manufacturers service partner and another batch fitted by Siemens using the same system as Desiros that worked flawlessly. When they needed to make more than a minor change the systems on all trains they went to the company who had proceeded over 10 years of issues who have now in turn managed to take the Siemens units from rock solid to all over the place at the same time.

Yeah I'm not expecting anything to stick around long-term, but there'll definitely be some of the existing fleet sticking around longer than was originally proposed.
That being said, the units they keep will almost certainly be what's cheapest to lease and works with the current driver regime. That will mean 321s since the 317s being the most dire (and fewer in number) are the first things the 720s will likely displace, leaving the shortfall of units on the GE side.
No point retraining 317 drivers for 321s or vice versa when you could just ditch one fleet and keep some of the other until all the 720s are in service.

As an Oyster user I haven't ever used First Class so I'll have to take your word on that but can certainly believe it. The 321s' pre-FGE state is a bit before I can remember - I was certainly around and using the train then, but predominantly only 315s. I didn't realise they had made that much of an improvement, I only really recall the colour scheme change inside and out, the loss of the murals on the wall and the loss of the square door buttons.
Nonetheless it does seem odd that units less than 10 years old would be being refurbished to such an extent, but I suppose that was the impression they wanted to give of privatisation.

I'm sure there's a plenty good enough business case for why they did what they did with the displays, it saves them having to reprogram them but they are atrocious units - dot matrix displays aren't difficult to get right, the similarly cheap-looking units fitted to the 315s generally work fairly well, as do those fitted to Bombardier stock. You don't have to be Siemens to get the job done, just literally anybody else!

What are the plans for the future of the class 360's? they are still relatively young in the train world compared to some classes(156s come to mind)

sleeper fan said:

What are the plans for the future of the class 360's? they are still relatively young in the train world compared to some classes(156s come to mind)

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The 156s are no older than many of the 321s believe it or not, but I don't think anybody knows what the future holds for the 360/1s. I think they will eventually see a use, but they could well end up sitting in storage for a while first while somebody contrives a use for them.

samuelmorris said:

The 156s are no older than many of the 321s believe it or not, but I don't think anybody knows what the future holds for the 360/1s. I think they will eventually see a use, but they could well end up sitting in storage for a while first while somebody contrives a use for them.

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156 was the first class that came to mind. Would be nice to see maybe more 360s on the GWR locals along with the electrostars or even working services in the north or out of Euston/Kings X

sleeper fan said:

156 was the first class that came to mind. Would be nice to see maybe more 360s on the GWR locals along with the electrostars or even working services in the north or out of Euston/Kings X

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The ideal candidate to boost either of those fleets would probably be the 379s since they are the closest approximation to the 387s already in use. If GN needed more units from Kings Cross, there are also all those withdrawn 365s lying unused which would be picked up first.

samuelmorris said:

The ideal candidate to boost either of those fleets would probably be the 379s since they are the closest approximation to the 387s already in use. If GN needed more units from Kings Cross, there are also all those withdrawn 365s lying unused which would be picked up first.

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True. Unfortuantly we are at a time where operators are wanting fleets with no variation(very boaring for the enthusiast/spotter) but hay ho and as a result there are loads of classes/sitting unused or will do soon that have many years still in them. To list but a few:
360(soon)
SWR 707(soon whats the future hold for these brand new trains)
SWR456
SWR 458
SWR 455
156
170
153
321
365

what is the future holding for these? surly they can open new services and routes? Anyone know the future of any of the above especially the GA and SWR stuff?

One likely use for the 360s has to be the forthcoming electric services to Corby. This was supposed to be a half-hourly, 12-car service into St Pancras IIRC - which would use, what, 20 units or so?

sleeper fan said:

True. Unfortuantly we are at a time where operators are wanting fleets with no variation(very boaring for the enthusiast/spotter) but hay ho and as a result there are loads of classes/sitting unused or will do soon that have many years still in them. To list but a few:
360(soon)
SWR 707(soon whats the future hold for these brand new trains)
SWR456
SWR 458
SWR 455
156
170
153
321
365

what is the future holding for these? surly they can open new services and routes? Anyone know the future of any of the above especially the GA and SWR stuff?

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I'm not too concerned about things being boring for enthusiasts, but I certainly don't approve of how wasteful recent TOC deployments are. 153s and 156s are frankly end of life, I don't think anyone's too fussed to see those go. 321s are being retired a little prematurely but are still over 30 years old now in most cases and so have been pretty well used.

aswilliamsuk said:

One likely use for the 360s has to be the forthcoming electric services to Corby. This was supposed to be a half-hourly, 12-car service into St Pancras IIRC - which would use, what, 20 units or so?

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Would think Corby would need around 18 sets to resource a half-hourly 12-car service. With maintenance cover, a fleet of 21 4-car sets sounds about right.

43096 said:

Would think Corby would need around 18 sets to resource a half-hourly 12-car service. With maintenance cover, a fleet of 21 4-car sets sounds about right.

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sounds good. they had better get a new use. I suppose it would be too costly to change them to DC power wouldn't it? if it was possible they could run the SWR mainlines as most of SWR stuff is Seimans.

sleeper fan said:

sounds good. they had better get a new use. I suppose it would be too costly to change them to DC power wouldn't it? if it was possible they could run the SWR mainlines as most of SWR stuff is Seimans.

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At the moment but don't forget they have ordered a very large Aventra fleet from Bombardier. My money is on 360s having a thorough refit & going to EMR.

Anyone:

How many 755s are in the UK, when will the first 755 enter service, and are there any estimates on how many 755s will have entered service by New Year's Day 2020...?

Thanks in advance

samuelmorris said:

The 156s are no older than many of the 321s believe it or not, but I don't think anybody knows what the future holds for the 360/1s. I think they will eventually see a use, but they could well end up sitting in storage for a while first while somebody contrives a use for them.

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I was going to suggest fitting the 360s with 3rd rail shoe gear and giving them to SE but i then remember SE recently got some Southern 377s

anamyd said:

Anyone:

How many 755s are in the UK, when will the first 755 enter service, and are there any estimates on how many 755s will have entered service by New Year's Day 2020...?

Thanks in advance

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iirc, about maybe 12 755/4s are here currently and only one 755/3, and the first actual service is apparently sometime this month or next month

samuelmorris said:

The 156s are no older than many of the 321s believe it or not, but I don't think anybody knows what the future holds for the 360/1s. I think they will eventually see a use, but they could well end up sitting in storage for a while first while somebody contrives a use for them.

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They (like the 350/2s) might as well go to any TOC that's still operating Mk3-derived EMUs to replace those. Northern is one possibility.

dk1 said:

At the moment but don't forget they have ordered a very large Aventra fleet from Bombardier. My money is on 360s having a thorough refit & going to EMR.

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Think you are probably right...looks the best option but when would that be?

rdlover777 said:

iirc, about maybe 12 755/4s are here currently and only one 755/3, and the first actual service is apparently sometime this month or next month

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Don't think that'll happen. Someone posted a few days ago that none have yet been handed over and only a select few GA drivers have driven them.
Seems like lots of testing and training still to be done.

sleeper fan said:

Think you are probably right...looks the best option but when would that be?

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They're unlikely to be leaving GA until well into 2020, so I don't imagine they'd see use at EMR until 2021 at the earliest.