ASLEF push for more female and BAME drivers

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

irish_rail said:
I'm just not sure it really is harder for women.
A colleague at my depot was telling me how he applied for another job with another toc a couple of years ago. Said colleague had an unblemished driving record and sickness record plus experience driving intercity trains, yet the job went to a female with an abysmal sickness record, several incidents including a spad and no "intercity" experi3nce. And the male colleague was in my opinion (relatively) employable, I'm sure he said he has a degree so interviews etc shouldn't be an issue. It smacks of positive discrimination in my view....

My industry is full of tales like this too.

RailUK Forums

OneOffDave · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
I find the term damaging and insulting.The idea that some how people like me have got to where they are today through privilege and not through ability or hard work is disgusting. I would go as far to say that's its basically sore loser talk!

I know of many cases in the companies I've worked for where promotions or jobs have had females/other races/sexualities actively promoted above the "privileged white males". Many of the individuals of these characteristics were totally useless. Funny how you don't hear the "privileged" males on the radio making such statements.

So basically you are saying that the reason for the gender pay gap is that women aren't trying hard enough and if they just got their finger out it'd all go away. I don't know if it's a wilful misunderstanding but if getting to position x is hard for a white man, then it's harder for a woman or non-white person to achieve the same position. It's difficult to see the privilege of one's own position as it's what we take as the normal state of affairs as we can't have the lived experience of people with different characteristics. It's all relative too. An upper middle class woman will probably be more 'successful' than a working class man, but she is statistically likely to be less 'successful' that the equivalent upper middle class man.

ComUtoR · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
My industry is full of tales like this too.

It truly is a shame that this happens. Clearly the thin edge of the wedge. Next thing you know, they will get passed over for promotion, and get paid less for the same position...

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

OneOffDave said:
So basically you are saying that the reason for the gender pay gap is that women aren't trying hard enough and if they just got their finger out it'd all go away. I don't know if it's a wilful misunderstanding but if getting to position x is hard for a white man, then it's harder for a woman or non-white person to achieve the same position. It's difficult to see the privilege of one's own position as it's what we take as the normal state of affairs as we can't have the lived experience of people with different characteristics. It's all relative too. An upper middle class woman will probably be more 'successful' than a working class man, but she is statistically likely to be less 'successful' that the equivalent upper middle class man.

Gender pay gap is a very, very subjective to begin with. It mainly only applies to those who negotiate their salaries e.g. sales executives and or very high up company bosses. I find it astounding that these people have managed to convince the average person that their cause is worth taking up. That includes celebrities on the BBC for example.

I don't believe it's is harder in any way for women than it is for men for X position. I would agree with you though that the class part is relevant.

OneOffDave · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
Gender pay gap is a very, very subjective to begin with. It mainly only applies to those who negotiate their salaries e.g. sales executives and or very high up company bosses. I find it astounding that these people have managed to convince the average person that their cause is worth taking up. That includes celebrities on the BBC for example.

I don't believe it's is harder in any way for women than it is for men for X position. I would agree with you though that the class part is relevant.

It doesn't matter about belief. There are provably fewer women on the boards of FTSE 100 companies and in senior positions in government.

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

ComUtoR said:
It truly is a shame that this happens. Clearly the thin edge of the wedge. Next thing you know, they will get passed over for promotion, and get paid less for the same position...

Have you ever been paid more than a female of equivalent position in your line of work?

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

OneOffDave said:
It doesn't matter about belief. There are provably fewer women on the boards of FTSE 100 companies and in senior positions in government.

Can you explain to me why it matters who is on these boards?

I never seem to hear anything about equal numbers of women in front line heavy labour jobs or any other low paid hard graft occupations. Only seems to be the top jobs, very strange.

ComUtoR · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
Have you ever been paid more than a female of equivalent position in your line of work?

Doesn't that depend on if I'm Male or Female. But, in a previous employment there was a gender pay gap as well as being male dominated.

Women have peen penalized in the workplace for years. They have struggled to find employment, struggled to be successful in it and are treated as lesser employees. It is the same with ethnic minorities. It still happens and any attempt to change antiquated opinions and Victorian attitudes should be supported.

It is equally strange that you only hear about discrimination against men but not about the plethora of years that women have suffered with. If each time a woman, ethnic, or even disabled person gets discriminated against was published; the internet would probably crash.

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

ComUtoR said:
Doesn't that depend on if I'm Male or Female. But, in a previous employment there was a gender pay gap as well as being male dominated.

Women have peen penalized in the workplace for years. They have struggled to find employment, struggled to be successful in it and are treated as lesser employees. It is the same with ethnic minorities. It still happens and any attempt to change antiquated opinions and Victorian attitudes should be supported.

It is equally strange that you only hear about discrimination against men but not about the plethora of years that women have suffered with. If each time a woman, ethnic, or even disabled person gets discriminated against was published; the internet would probably crash.

Pay gap between equal positions? Male dominated by design?

Not in the last 30 years at least they haven't. Individuals of all genders/race have the same problem finding employment, it is not restricted to minorities etc. I have never been in a workplace that has treated women as "lesser" employees, quite the opposite actually!

You must be joking :lol:

, It's ALL you hear about! BBC news is riddled with this stuff EVERY DAY.

OneOffDave · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
Can you explain to me why it matters who is on these boards?

I never seem to hear anything about equal numbers of women in front line heavy labour jobs or any other low paid hard graft occupations. Only seems to be the top jobs, very strange.

It matters as they should reasonably reflect the make up of our society as subconscious bias influences decision making and skews things towards people like ourselves. Define a front line heavy labour job. Fairly physically demanding low paid jobs like food production, cleaning, entry level healthcare and related caring jobs are dominated by women.

OneOffDave · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
You must be joking , It's ALL you hear about! BBC news is riddled with this stuff EVERY DAY.

No hyperbole there at all then! You're asserting that the BBC new website covers nothing but instances of discrimination. Can you back that up with evidence or is it just a reckon?

bionic · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
I find the term damaging and insulting.The idea that some how people like me have got to where they are today through privilege and not through ability or hard work is disgusting. I would go as far to say that's its basically sore loser talk!

Pointing out the widely accepted and proven fact that inequality exists is not a personal attack on you.

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

OneOffDave said:
It matters as they should reasonably reflect the make up of our society as subconscious bias influences decision making and skews things towards people like ourselves. Define a front line heavy labour job. Fairly physically demanding low paid jobs like food production, cleaning, entry level healthcare and related caring jobs are dominated by women.

OneOffDave said:
No hyperbole there at all then! You're asserting that the BBC new website covers nothing but instances of discrimination. Can you back that up with evidence or is it just a reckon?

Fishing/Trawling
Heavy Engineering
Construction site labourers
Maintenance gangs in rail/national grid etc
Roughnecks
Sewage Engineers
Plumbers
Electricians

I could list many,many more if you like. These are just a few examples that operate behind the scenes that go completely unnoticed by the general public. Males make up most of the occupations with the highest mortality rates. Do see men out complaining about equal representation in those careers you just listed? Certainly the women don't seem to have a problem in dominating your examples. Where's the equality there?

Here's just one example from Auntie today..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48667561

Newcastle shot girls say harassment was 'part of job'
By Katie SmithReporter, BBC Newcastle

Media captionShot girls say they are regularly propositioned while working
"Shot girls" have described how they had been routinely sexually assaulted and often paid below the minimum wage.

Three women from Newcastle said they were "groped" by men, propositioned for sex and told by bosses it was "just part of the job".

They were employed to carry shots of alcohol on a tray around nightclubs and try to sell them.

They made 30p a shot in commission and often took home only £5 a shift. The company in question denies the claims.

After failing to pay her the minimum wage, one woman claimed the firm, which the BBC is not naming, said it was her fault for not working hard enough.

Katie Readshaw, 25, from Durham, originally worked behind a bar but said she wanted to become a so-called shot girl because it looked "glamorous".

She said: "I was behind the bar in a dingy horrible uniform, covered in vodka and they were wandering around in lovely little dresses and they seemed like they were always busy and making money."

Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image captionKatie said staff were actively encouraged to flirt with men for sales
During an interview with her employers, she felt they were "sizing up girls to see if they were pretty enough to work for them".

The company said all staff were "expertly trained".

Ms Readshaw said training included a three-slide PowerPoint presentation telling them to "never give up and to keep flirting".

After they signed a contract, the firm sent the women into bars around Newcastle where they had agreements to provide shot girls.

The company was not responsible for breaches of the law by bar customers, staff or bouncers.

Ms Readshaw said: "I've had a few gropings and things. A married man giving me his keycard for his hotel, with the hand with his wedding ring on."

She said other men wanted to do "violent acts" to her.

Image copyrightTOMASSIMKUS
Image captionOne woman said it was "non-stop bombardment"
"You laugh it off and pretend it's all right, but it really makes your skin crawl. And you think well, if I leave and I go to walk home, what if they follow me?"

She also said there were some nights when she would make £5 but her taxi home would be £6, meaning she had worked a full shift but ended the night with less money than she started it.

'Non-stop touching'
Another woman who worked as a shot girl, who did not want to be named, said: "I had one friend who tripped and her bottle went flying everywhere.

"She had to replace that, but you have to do it at the price they get all the individual shots for.

"So that particular bottle of sambuca retailed at £30, but she had to pay £90 for it."

She said her worst experience was in a pub, when "from start to finish it was a non-stop bombardment" of men inappropriately touching her and commenting on her body.

"The thing I remember mainly at the end of the shift was being quite shaken up by how horrible it was, and then one of the managers coming in, their reaction was 'Well, that's kind of what happens isn't it, it comes with the territory of the job'," she said.

Another woman told how she failed to sell a single shot and only had 20 minutes until her last train home.

Image captionOne woman told the BBC she made nothing for an entire shift
She asked her manager if she could leave but they refused. She left anyway and that night she made nothing.

Employment lawyer Ruby Dinsmore said the company was ultimately "breaking the law" by not paying staff the national minimum wage.

She said: "I note that one of the girls said that she was told that harassment, sexual harassment, was just part and parcel of the job.

"Well, that's certainly not the case. The manager and certainly the employer is fully responsible for ensuring that the girls are adequately protected from sexual harassment."

The company said it was shocked and categorically denied the claims.

A Department for Business spokesperson said they were unable to comment on individual cases, but said anyone who thought they had been paid less than the minimum wage should contact Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service) - which provides free and impartial information and advice on workplace relations and employment law.

The spokesperson added: "HMRC (HM Revenue and Customs) follows up every complaint made and investigates employers where necessary."

There's a story of feminist woe every day.

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

bionic said:
Pointing out the widely accepted and proven fact that inequality exists is not a personal attack on you.

I find the terminology insulting. I'm aware you're not having a personal go at me. The very fact generic terms like this can be used freely points to the fact that yes there is inequality.

OneOffDave · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
Here's just one example from Auntie today..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48667561

There's a story of feminist woe every day.

I didn't know that being sexually assaulted at work was feminist woe or should they know their place and just let men get on with being men?. One story isn't exactly "riddled". Oh, there are two other 'feminist' stories on the England front page, both about women murdered by men.

Bellbell · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
Can you explain to me why it matters who is on these boards?

I never seem to hear anything about equal numbers of women in front line heavy labour jobs or any other low paid hard graft occupations. Only seems to be the top jobs, very strange.

This is brilliant. You're surprised that in a push for equality people are pursuing the high paying jobs over the low paying jobs? Really? And you somehow think that's indicative of wanting special treatment?

duncanp · 21 Jun 2019

Here's just one example from Auntie today.

I wouldn't refer to the BBC as Auntie if I were you, otherwise you could be accused of sexism.

Mintona · 21 Jun 2019

Again, surely the point is encouraging a wider spectrum of people to apply for jobs, and not about actively employing anyone over anyone else because of their gender etc. That is to be applauded. Why shouldn’t more people have the chance to apply for jobs that they might not even be aware are being advertised? They might make excellent train drivers, but currently don’t have the chance to do it, because they’re not aware of it.

irish_rail · 21 Jun 2019

Mintona said:
Again, surely the point is encouraging a wider spectrum of people to apply for jobs, and not about actively employing anyone over anyone else because of their gender etc. That is to be applauded. Why shouldn’t more people have the chance to apply for jobs that they might not even be aware are being advertised? They might make excellent train drivers, but currently don’t have the chance to do it, because they’re not aware of it.

That's like saying as a man I don't have the chance to apply for say a beauty therapists job because I'm not aware of it. Of course I'm aware that the job exists and of course If it was a field that interested me I know I could apply and enter that career.
The thing that is putting most women off in my opinion is the shift work, and I hate to say it , that isn't changing anytime soon. And the very notion that women should be able to pick and choose shifts to suit them is frankly absurd and hopefully will never come to fruition.

AlterEgo · 21 Jun 2019

irish_rail said:
That's like saying as a man I don't have the chance to apply for say a beauty therapists job because I'm not aware of it. Of course I'm aware that the job exists and of course If it was a field that interested me I know I could apply and enter that career.
The thing that is putting most women off in my opinion is the shift work, and I hate to say it , that isn't changing anytime soon. And the very notion that women should be able to pick and choose shifts to suit them is frankly absurd and hopefully will never come to fruition.

It's not that women aren't aware of the actual job existing, but rather a few factors, the most important being:

- Women not being aware what the job is actually like
- Vacancies not being communicated in places women will see it

Do you or I know what being a beauty therapist is really like? Think about how ignorant the public are about train driving and then think that we may have a similar level of ignorance about being a beauty therapist.

Nobody is suggesting women should be able to pick and choose shifts but it is likely that having a more female-oriented workforce will lead to an increase in the workforce overall wanting accommodated shifts. The industry needs to think carefully about the repercussions of this:

- Will they be able to retain women drivers in the grade for as long as they do men?
- Will shift patterns and ways of working need to change?
- Will single men find the job less appealing if the shift patterns change?
- Will the culture of the railway need to change and if so, what steps need to be taken?
- Will it cost a lot of money?

We don't know the answers to the above as I don't think the industry has explored it.

ExRes · 21 Jun 2019

Is anyone aware of the female to male ratio in the upper echelons of ASLEF?

Mintona · 21 Jun 2019

irish_rail said:
That's like saying as a man I don't have the chance to apply for say a beauty therapists job because I'm not aware of it. Of course I'm aware that the job exists and of course If it was a field that interested me I know I could apply and enter that career.
The thing that is putting most women off in my opinion is the shift work, and I hate to say it , that isn't changing anytime soon. And the very notion that women should be able to pick and choose shifts to suit them is frankly absurd and hopefully will never come to fruition.

Would you actually know where to apply though? I wouldn’t. I could probably find out, I have an iPhone, a computer etc. I could look it up. Not everybody has such luxuries.
I don’t believe women are put off by the shift work. If that was the case then nearly all the customer hosts and TMs would be male too, and that’s not the case.

irish_rail · 21 Jun 2019

Mintona said:
Would you actually know where to apply though? I wouldn’t. I could probably find out, I have an iPhone, a computer etc. I could look it up. Not everybody has such luxuries.
I don’t believe women are put off by the shift work. If that was the case then nearly all the customer hosts and TMs would be male too, and that’s not the case.

Ah yes but regarding the customer hosts for example the shifts are far better. At Plymouth anyway they are either permanent earlies middles or lates. No nights either. Again, TMs no nights.
And i don't buy that in this day and age everybody does not have access to the internet, the vast majority do, especially workforce aged people , and it would be a very easy and quick online search to see what's involved and look up how to apply. How spoon fed should the process be!!?? Is expecting women to have to actively search for vacancies unreasonable???!!! The other risk here is you are increasing the number of people merely doing the job for the money rather than those that actually want to do it, and this has all kinds of dis-benefits including greater sickness levels.

bionic · 21 Jun 2019

irish_rail said:
And the very notion that women should be able to pick and choose shifts to suit them is frankly absurd and hopefully will never come to fruition.

I can think of plenty of drivers who are being, or have been "accomodated" in this way... and the vast bulk of them have been straight white males!

ExRes said:
Is anyone aware of the female to male ratio in the upper echelons of ASLEF?

Yes. I'm also aware of what ASLEF as a union are trying to do to fight inequality in the workplace. It's an uphill struggle in some places. At one point "Mind The Gag" campaign posters were being pulled down faster than the reps could put them up, presumably by ASLEF members who felt somehow threatened by the campaign's message. It beggars belief to be honest.

deltic · 21 Jun 2019

irish_rail said:
Ah yes but regarding the customer hosts for example the shifts are far better. At Plymouth anyway they are either permanent earlies middles or lates. No nights either. Again, TMs no nights.
And i don't buy that in this day and age everybody does not have access to the internet, the vast majority do, especially workforce aged people , and it would be a very easy and quick online search to see what's involved and look up how to apply. How spoon fed should the process be!!?? Is expecting women to have to actively search for vacancies unreasonable???!!! The other risk here is you are increasing the number of people merely doing the job for the money rather than those that actually want to do it, and this has all kinds of dis-benefits including greater sickness levels.

According to the TUC 1.9m men work nights compared to 1.2m women. It also reports that the fastest growth in night working is for women.

Esker-pades · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
Here's just one example from Auntie today..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48667561

There's a story of feminist woe every day.

Please insert a summary of this article, as per the forum rules.

Picking an article about sexual harassment in the workplace and describing it as a "feminist woe" is not the best way to convince people of your viewpoint. It's disgusting really.

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

OneOffDave said:
I didn't know that being sexually assaulted at work was feminist woe or should they know their place and just let men get on with being men?. One story isn't exactly "riddled". Oh, there are two other 'feminist' stories on the England front page, both about women murdered by men.

I noticed you completely missed the part about low pay. Well done. There will be another tomorrow as usual.

Bellbell said:
This is brilliant. You're surprised that in a push for equality people are pursuing the high paying jobs over the low paying jobs? Really? And you somehow think that's indicative of wanting special treatment?

It's supposed to be equal representation in all occupations, wasn't that used above "reasonably reflect the make up of our society". Complaining about the higher paid jobs while completely ignoring the lower paid but actually more critical just shows what a load of nonsense this is.

I will state my point again. Why does it matter who fills the job as long as they are competent. I really couldn't give a hoot where the come from or who they are. Obviously other members disagree, that's fine you are free to do so, but consider that you are the ones creating division.

There's an excellent article in this month's issue of "The Telegraph" published by the MN Officers union Nautilus over this very subject. Nautilus is also on one of these equality crusades when what they should targeting is equal pay regardless of origin i.e. the person is paid for the job they do, not their nationality or any other characteristic.

GrimShady · 21 Jun 2019

FelixtheCat said:
Please insert a summary of this article, as per the forum rules.

Picking an article about sexual harassment in the workplace and describing it as a "feminist woe" is not the best way to convince people of your viewpoint. It's disgusting really.

When I get to a PC I will do just that. It was a response to the accusation that I had just pulled the "instances of discrimination" arguement on the BBC news site out of nowhere, there is todays proof.

I find the the term "privileged white males" equally disgusting! Then again us sort don't count do we?

Also I'm not really interested in convincing anyone of my view point. The facts are there for anyone to see. Have a look at Sweden where social engineering has been on the go for a long time. What was the result? More division in gender roles!

EM2 · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
I will state my point again. Why does it matter who fills the job as long as they are competent. O really couldn't give a hoot where the come from or who they are. Obviously other members disagree, that's fine you a free to do so, but consider that you are the ones creating division.

The point is to find the people that are competent. I guarantee that there are a lot of young people, BAME people, and females that are more than capable of driving a train and want to do it. The question is, as asked right at the beginning of the thread, why aren't they applying?
That's what ASLEF are trying to find out and trying to overcome these concerns against the job that these people have, to say 'you think the job is like this, and that's why you don't want to do it. But if we can show you that it isn't and your concerns are unfounded, why not apply?'

EM2 · 21 Jun 2019

GrimShady said:
I find the the term "privileged white males" equally disgusting! Then again us sort don't count do we?

I am a white, heterosexual, nominally Christian male born and living in a Western democracy. That makes me pretty much one of the most privileged people in the world. I don't what's disgusting about being referred to as such, because it's true. The sooner people like me realise that a lot of the problems in the world are caused by people like me, the better it will be.

ASLEF push for more female and BAME drivers

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