What to do if railcard is not available on TVM

Pumperkin · 3 Jul 2019

Hi,

I travelled with my wife (and 3 year old) from Hunmanby to Hull. We parked in good time and I left them on the platform whilst I crossed the level crossing for the TVM. The railcard option 2TR was not listed, and therefore I went via the promise to pay route (which vended a ticket without charge). The screen itself was difficult to read due to bright sunlight.

Once on board I asked for 2 returns with a 2TR railcard and this was sold appropriately non-quibble.

I was a little apprehensive of getting on the train without a ticket and with a promise to pay a higher fare than I actually wanted to pay (as the railcard did not seem to be asked for at all on promise to pay), especially given reading here about Northern RPIs giving out many penalty fares.

Should I have just bought 2 returns with a different railcard selected (same discount), or would this not be correct?

RailUK Forums

Saperstein · 3 Jul 2019

I would say if you cannot buy what you need on the TVM it’s the same as if there is no working TVM at the station and you should pay, and get appropriate discounts at the earliest opportunity. i.e. on the train ect

There shouldn’t be any hassle as it’s not your fault.

I can’t comment on Northern RPIs as I’ve never encountered one. (Only a guard).

As for tickets with the wrong railcard, I recently bought a single with Disabled persons railcard, I didn’t notice until I collected it that somehow I had selected the Senior railcard option in the Greater Anglia trains app.

The price was the same but I guess that if an RPI had wanted to kick off they could have.

As it happened I got gripped on a LNW train and I was about to explain to the guard it was an error but she was fine, at my destination it wouldn’t work the barriers but barrier staff (virgin trains) just waived me through.

Saperstein.

thejuggler · 3 Jul 2019

In my experience you won't get quibble from a Northern Guard - they aren't RPIs.

The worst I have heard is a guard advising someone that as they got on at a station with a ticket office they should have purchased there and not on board - it was a more a warning that had he been RPI a penalty would have been given . They still sold them a ticket.

robbeech · 3 Jul 2019

You did the right thing. If the TVM was the only method on the station to buy a ticket and it doesn’t sell you want then what you did was the correct approach. We can argue til the cows come home about the legality of promise to pay but you might aswell get one to save additional arguments.
As others have said it’s incredibly unlikely you’ll encounter any problems with a guard although an RPI at a station like Manchester or Leeds will happily dish out penalty fares for this even with a promise to pay.

Without wishing to go off topic, why have Northern machines stopped offering the Two Together railcard. They always used to.

Pumperkin · 3 Jul 2019

Thanks all. Not sure whether it is the same for all Northern TVMs? I live in WMR area so don't encounter them too much. Possibly to do with it being a less-used railcard so not added to the list?

JBuchananGB · 3 Jul 2019

Not just TVMs that get it wrong. Last year my wife and presented our two Senior railcards to buy tickets at Merseyrail ticket office and were sold tickets marked with Two Together. Worked fine, not challenged.

323235 · 3 Jul 2019

There seems to be an issue with Northern TVMs at the moment as I've seen multiple people tweet Northern showing the discount screen with no railcards listed at multiple locations.

A promise to pay doesn't actually indicate what fare you selected on the machine, only the station - they just do it like that as people were emptying the machine when it was a single click.

If you can't buy the ticket you want at an origin station with the correct discount, then the penalty fare regulations do not allow a penalty fare to be charged for buying onboard , at an interchange station or at your destination i.e. the earliest opportunity.

RPI · 3 Jul 2019

Daft question but I'm assuming it was after 0930 when you tried to use it?

WesternLancer · 3 Jul 2019

Pumperkin said:
Hi,
Should I have just bought 2 returns with a different railcard selected (same discount), or would this not be correct?

Don't buy a ticket with the wrong railcard as a deliberate alternative as you could easily be prosecuted for that (if that is the right term) - often the railcards have varying conditions of use even if the discount is basically the same (eg disabled ralicard has no time restriction IIRC, being an obvious one), so as mentioned above it may be a start time rule that applied for example.

Better to take pic of the TVM screen showing no option for the railcard you need (if this is poss) as proof the machine not offering the ticket you need and thus allowing you option of payment later when full option available.

Pumperkin · 4 Jul 2019

RPI said:
Daft question but I'm assuming it was after 0930 when you tried to use it?

Think you've hit the nail on the head :oops:

It was the 09:42 train from Hunmanby so there's a good chance I was using the machine before 09:30. Silly me for thinking it would know I couldn't buy a ticket for a pre-09:30 train at something like 09:25 from that station.

In future I will take pics of TVMs if I have issues.

CyrusWuff · 4 Jul 2019

There is an updated version of the software for the Parkeon TVMs which, amongst other things, features a journey planner interface and allows you to select from a larger range of Railcards and other discounts.

Hopefully that'll address such issues when it gets fully rolled out across the various TOCs that use them.

WesternLancer · 4 Jul 2019

Pumperkin said:
Think you've hit the nail on the head It was the 09:42 train from Hunmanby so there's a good chance I was using the machine before 09:30. Silly me for thinking it would know I couldn't buy a ticket for a pre-09:30 train at something like 09:25 from that station.

In future I will take pics of TVMs if I have issues.

gosh - I thought you could use TVMs to get the thing at least a little bit (30 mins) before validity started, but maybe not...

thejuggler · 4 Jul 2019

WesternLancer said:
gosh - I thought you could use TVMs to get the thing at least a little bit (30 mins) before validity started, but maybe not...

Not in my experience - my first service after 9.30 used to be 9.32. You had to wait until the clock was 9.30 before off peak tickets were sold.

najaB · 4 Jul 2019

WesternLancer said:
I thought you could use TVMs to get the thing at least a little bit (30 mins) before validity started, but maybe not.

Depends on the machine. Some offer journey planner features, but most are 'tickets for immediate travel'.

WesternLancer · 4 Jul 2019

najaB said:
Depends on the machine. Some offer journey planner features, but most are 'tickets for immediate travel'.

which raises another issue in that I find it a nuisance that when you are in different TOC areas the machines are often a bit different - so if you have learned how to use your local one quickly, you can be flummoxed when you are visiting another part of the country and encounter a different TOCs machines.

To my mind this is just the sort of thing the industry should avoid happening.

I wonder how many different types of TVM now exist over the former NSE area alone? [new thread needed for that one!]

gray1404 · 4 Jul 2019

I do take the view that if a TVM will only sell certain tickets after the point they become valid in terms of time restrictions, and the train departs very soon after and there is no manned booking office then the passenger has not been given an opportunity to purchase before travel and should buy at the next suitable opportunity.

There is no way a passenger should have to risk missing their train or having to even rush for it just because the TVM will not offer a certain ticket before a certain time. The railcard terms and conditions that impose time restrictions and the ticket restricts themselves relate to actual use of a ticket, not an additional restriction of when a ticket can also be sold.

sheff1 · 4 Jul 2019

gray1404 said:
There is no way a passenger should have to risk missing their train or having to even rush for it just because the TVM will not offer a certain ticket before a certain time.

Passengers are frequently advised, on here and elsewhere, to arrive at a station in plenty of time to purchase a ticket. Yet at too many stations, even if they do, they are not able to buy the correct ticket for their jourmey because the TVMs are programmed contrary to the ticketing info put out by RDG - e.g "Off Peak ticket - buy any time, travel off-peak". No doubt many passengers, who are not aware of all the ticket options available, end up paying for a more expensive ticket than they need.

In the absence of a proper Rail Ombusman, it would appear no-one can instruct TOCs to reprogramme the TVMs or apply appropriate punative measures if they fail to do so.

yorkie · 4 Jul 2019

sheff1 said:
Passengers are frequently advised, on here and elsewhere, to arrive at a station in plenty of time to purchase a ticket. Yet at too many stations, even if they do, they are not able to buy the correct ticket for their jourmey because the TVMs are programmed contrary to the ticketing info put out by RDG - e.g "Off Peak ticket - buy any time, travel off-peak". No doubt many passengers, who are not aware of all the ticket options available, end up paying for a more expensive ticket than they need.

Absolutely. I see plenty of evidence of multiple consumer law breaches by various TOCs.

They are playing a risky game.

sheff1 said:
In the absence of a proper Rail Ombusman, it would appear no-one can instruct TOCs to reprogramme the TVMs or apply appropriate punative measures if they fail to do so.

I think it'll take some class action lawsuits to get things changed.

najaB · 4 Jul 2019

yorkie said:
I think it'll take some class action lawsuits to get things changed.

I'm not sure that these are a thing.

gray1404 · 4 Jul 2019

I know some TOCs now offer a policy where by if a customer pays more then what they needed when buying a ticket from a TVM, they can claim a refund of the difference back. This is perhaps another route to take in certain cases. However I don't see why the customer should be inconvenienced in such a way.

exesoundtech · 4 Jul 2019

CyrusWuff said:
There is an updated version of the software for the Parkeon TVMs which, amongst other things, features a journey planner interface and allows you to select from a larger range of Railcards and other discounts.

Hopefully that'll address such issues when it gets fully rolled out across the various TOCs that use them.

Indeed, and as it happens Hunmanby received that update last week.

WesternLancer · 4 Jul 2019

gray1404 said:
I know some TOCs now offer a policy where by if a customer pays more then what they needed when buying a ticket from a TVM, they can claim a refund of the difference back. This is perhaps another route to take in certain cases. However I don't see why the customer should be inconvenienced in such a way.

Yes, and one fears claim a refund from a team of poorly trained staff with limited grasp of ticket eligibility who then reject claims over issues like 'ticket failed to be voided' and other such excuses no doubt!

TVMs are about cost cutting (understandably) of staffed facilities that sell the full range. That's fair enough - but if the ticket not available then the 'promise to pay' or permit to travel approach should be clearly offered.

Tom B · 5 Jul 2019

Surely it would not be difficult to allow off peak tickets to be purchased from (say) 9am, with a very large red message stating that they were not valid until after that time, which the passenger must agree to? Or, allow purchase of off peak fares after the scheduled departure time of the last peak service (on the grounds that whilst an off peak ticket would be invalid if used before 0930, if there is no such service then in practice it can't be used).

ForTheLoveOf · 5 Jul 2019

Tom B said:
Or, allow purchase of off peak fares after the scheduled departure time of the last peak service (on the grounds that whilst an off peak ticket would be invalid if used before 0930, if there is no such service then in practice it can't be used).

Not a feasible solution where there is either a very high frequency of trains or the timings just so happen to work out that the first Off-Peak train comes very shortly after the train before.

exesoundtech · 5 Jul 2019

Tom B said:
Surely it would not be difficult to allow off peak tickets to be purchased from (say) 9am, with a very large red message stating that they were not valid until after that time, which the passenger must agree to? Or, allow purchase of off peak fares after the scheduled departure time of the last peak service (on the grounds that whilst an off peak ticket would be invalid if used before 0930, if there is no such service then in practice it can't be used).

As noted by @CyrusWuff above, this appears to be rolling out with the new journey planner software, which permits sale of an off peak ticket so long as you have selected an off peak journey.

Pumperkin · 5 Jul 2019

exesoundtech said:
Indeed, and as it happens Hunmanby received that update last week.

Ahh. My travel was about a week early then. Perhaps I should have waited a week to be able to buy the correct ticket then claiming for delay repay as I'd wanted to travel a week earlier but was unable to buy ticket at correct price

exesoundtech · 5 Jul 2019

Pumperkin said:
Ahh. My travel was about a week early then. Perhaps I should have waited a week to be able to buy the correct ticket then claiming for delay repay as I'd wanted to travel a week earlier but was unable to buy ticket at correct price

Pro-tip: Looks like you need to select two passengers before selecting the railcard as (not unreasonably IMHO) it greys out the Two Together if you've only selected one passenger...

RPI · 5 Jul 2019

In the West we have the opposite problem in that some of our S&B machines will retail the Off-peak fare before the last peak train has gone! Was only one station if I remember correctly, back to the OP and this scenario, it's certainly not a requirement to take a picture of the TVM but it can make the whole on train/gateline interaction much more pleasant for both parties, or if you straight away find the guard on the train and explain, again, it's not a requirement but it makes it easy all round.

I have to say that when I encounter such issues as an RPI as long as I can see that the passenger has done all that they can then I'll happily sell the appropriate ticket, to flip the coin the other way I recently caught out a young lad, he arrived at the gateline stating that he had travelled from a station and that the TVM hadn't accepted his £20, I questioned why he hadn't used the ticket office and he replied that the staff had been dispatching a train (the station in question is staffed with one person who does ticket office and dispatch), I was happy to sell the ticket when he pulled out a £10 note to pay, I was suspicious now so I asked him if I could see the £20 he'd used, he said it was in his wallet, he opened it up and...... no £20, I asked him if he'd said it to avoid a PF, he laughed, put his hands up and subsequently handed me his drivers licence for the inevitable PF which he paid in full using a debit card, so if you are ever asked a couple of questions like that by an RPI don't be offended, there's method to the madness.

sheff1 · 5 Jul 2019

Tom B said:
Surely it would not be difficult to allow off peak tickets to be purchased from (say) 9am, with a very large red message stating that they were not valid until after that time, which the passenger must agree to? Or, allow purchase of off peak fares after the scheduled departure time of the last peak service (on the grounds that whilst an off peak ticket would be invalid if used before 0930, if there is no such service then in practice it can't be used).

Well, as Off Peak tickets for four of the journeys I make regularly are valid from 0500, 0715, 0830, 0900 the idea of not selling them before 0900, or another arbitrary time, would not be good. I really do not understand why TVMs do not sell Off Peak tickets all the time (obviously with a suitabale warning message) in accordance with the ticket buying info published by RDG ..... especially when you can stand next to a TVM at any time, purchase the 'offending' ticket on your phone and collect it from the machine seconds later.

FenMan · 6 Jul 2019

sheff1 said:
Well, as Off Peak tickets for four of the journeys I make regularly are valid from 0500, 0715, 0830, 0900 the idea of not selling them before 0900, or another arbitrary time, would not be good. I really do not understand why TVMs do not sell Off Peak tickets all the time (obviously with a suitabale warning message) in accordance with the ticket buying info published by RDG ..... especially when you can stand next to a TVM at any time, purchase the 'offending' ticket on your phone and collect it from the machine seconds later.

Which is what I do now, having been dinged twice by a GWR TM that doesn't offer Super Off Peak tickets from my home (GWR) station, where many flows are priced by SWR.

What to do if railcard is not available on TVM

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member