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Passengers self-detrain from LO train 15 July 2019

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Chris M

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The RAIB have published a news story on their website stating they have carried out a preliminary investigation into passengers self-detraining from a London Overground* train between Shepherd's Bush and Willesden Junction. They will publish a safety digest into the incident "in the next few weeks".

At around 16:54 hrs on 15 July 2019, a train running between Clapham Junction and Stratford, and carrying between 500 and 600 passengers, became stranded at North Pole Junction. Conditions inside the train deteriorated and around 30 passengers opened doors and detrained onto the live railway. After just over an hour and a half, a controlled evacuation of passengers onto the track commenced, after other trains had been stopped and the traction power supply turned off.

North Pole junction gives access to the Great Western Main Line via North Pole Depot (the former Eurostar depot which now maintains the Class 80x IEP trains) and is between Shepherd's Bush and Willesden Junction for Overground trains. I think this is where the trains change from DC to AC operation (and a failure during changing would be a plausible reason for a train to become stranded there). From the lack of mention in this news story and my not hearing about it elsewhere I presume that there were no injuries.

*It doesn't state this was an LO train, but they are the only operator to run passenger trains between Clapham Junction and Stratford.
 
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At North Pole Jn it could have been a Southern service heading to Milton Keynes. They also use the AC/DC changeover facility there.
 

Darandio

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At North Pole Jn it could have been a Southern service heading to Milton Keynes. They also use the AC/DC changeover facility there.

It was an LO service, their Twitter was in meltdown on the day in question due to there also being a depot derailment.
 

Chris M

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At North Pole Jn it could have been a Southern service heading to Milton Keynes. They also use the AC/DC changeover facility there.
Indeed it Southern services to Milton Keynes do traverse this bit of railway, but the RAIB specifically state it was a service from Clapham Junction to Stratford.
 

Chris M

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90 minutes to evacuation does seem a sensibly quick one given the lack of toilets on a LO service.
But not quick enough to prevent self-detrainment. I suspect that if the aircon had failed on what was likely a busy peak shoulder service that it got pretty unpleasant onboard pretty quickly.
 

Surreytraveller

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I think within the London area, due to the availability of other transport modes such as buses being plentiful, people are likely to self-detrain much more sooner than in more remote areas. Trains in more remote areas are also more likely to have other crew members on board who will help keep a lid on the situation.
People's tolerance these days to these situations is also a lot worse than 10 or more years ago
 

yorkie

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I think within the London area, due to the availability of other transport modes such as buses being plentiful, people are likely to self-detrain much more sooner than in more remote areas.
Very true. This is likely to be the primary reason.
Trains in more remote areas are also more likely to have other crew members on board who will help keep a lid on the situation.
A 12 car train could have 24 vestibules; you'd need a lot of staff to try to prevent it.
People's tolerance these days to these situations is also a lot worse than 10 or more years ago
Maybe. Another potential reason could be that it's easier now to re-plan your journey than it was ten years ago with the use of smartphones and availability of mobile internet access.
 

py_megapixel

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"Selfdetrainment." Well that's jargon if ever I saw it.

Terminology aside, is there any record of injuries to these passengers? It seems that moving trains and points and the third rail could be very dangerous.
 

bionic

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I'd be interested to see the ratio of "selfdetrainments" involving DOO trains compared to those on crew-worked services. Every time I hear about this kind of thing it's on DOO, which stands to reason.
 

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"Selfdetrainment." Well that's jargon if ever I saw it.

Terminology aside, is there any record of injuries to these passengers? It seems that moving trains and points and the third rail could be very dangerous.

It's a 2 track line there, you could do it without crossing anything. Falling from height is probably the highest risk. The third rail is I think on the inside so no risk of touching it if you detrain on the outside.
 

yorkie

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I'd be interested to see the ratio of "selfdetrainments" involving DOO trains compared to those on crew-worked services. Every time I hear about this kind of thing it's on DOO, which stands to reason.
It can happen anywhere (here is one from Bristol with no driver only operated trains: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/passengers-detrain-themselves-in-bristol-area-26-09.121269/ ) but I agree with others that it is more likely to occur in areas with easy access to alternative transport provision, with London being a prime example of that.
 

Chris M

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I'd be interested to see the ratio of "selfdetrainments" involving DOO trains compared to those on crew-worked services. Every time I hear about this kind of thing it's on DOO, which stands to reason.
I'd be wary of cause and effect. All the recent self-detrainments I can recall (this one, Lewisham, Kentish Town, Notting Hill Gate) have been from high frequency metro services in a large urban area. The recent incidents that didn't result in self-detrainment (Northamptonshire, New Forest) involved long distance services coming to a stand in very rural areas.
Urban metro services are more likely to be DOO than long-distance intercity services, which are more likely to fail a significant distance from built up areas. Another factor is that if your entire journey would be ~15 minutes (without disruption) being delayed for 30 minutes is much more psychologically significant than being delayed for 30 minutes on a journey that's scheduled to take 2 hours.

Personally I think the key factor with DOO is that it makes it harder to both resolve the issue and keep passengers informed - the incident at Peckham Rye is a great example. It's notable that this did not involve self-detrainment despite being yards short of the station, but a controlled* evacuation was begun after only about 15 minutes.
*albeit not done correctly.
 

Bletchleyite

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It can happen anywhere (here is one from Bristol with no driver only operated trains: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/passengers-detrain-themselves-in-bristol-area-26-09.121269/ ) but I agree with others that it is more likely to occur in areas with easy access to alternative transport provision, with London being a prime example of that.

Yes, probably so. I doubt anyone would bother self-detraining somewhere out on the Far North or West Highland Lines, for instance, though if it was getting unpleasant on board the egresses might well end up being pulled for ventilation purposes.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd be wary of cause and effect. All the recent self-detrainments I can recall (this one, Lewisham, Kentish Town, Notting Hill Gate) have been from high frequency metro services in a large urban area. The recent incidents that didn't result in self-detrainment (Northamptonshire, New Forest) involved long distance services coming to a stand in very rural areas.

Not only that but the New Forest one (or one of them at least) was in a station, Brockenhurst I think, so it would have been perfectly safe to leave the train - people just didn't as they had nowhere useful to go.
 

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Personally I think the key factor with DOO is that it makes it harder to both resolve the issue and keep passengers informed - the incident at Peckham Rye is a great example. It's notable that this did not involve self-detrainment despite being yards short of the station, but a controlled* evacuation was begun after only about 15 minutes.
*albeit not done correctly.

I thought that was a London Overground DOO service?
 
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Chris M

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I thought that was a LOL DOO service?
It was indeed an LO DOO service, but that's the point - the dangerous situation occurred because, in part, the one member of staff was having to deal with resolving a problem with the train and deal with passengers rather than there being a guard (or other member of staff) to deal with passengers while the driver dealt with the train fault.
 

Antman

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I'd be interested to see the ratio of "selfdetrainments" involving DOO trains compared to those on crew-worked services. Every time I hear about this kind of thing it's on DOO, which stands to reason.

What difference is the presence of a guard going to make?
 

Chris M

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Following the Lewisham incident I wrote:
Understand that passengers will self-evacuate and there are only two things the railway can do to stop it - (1) get the train moving again before they do. (2) evacuate them before they do.
The same post went into detail about what factors (I believe) influence how long the railway has to do either 1 or 2 depending on the circumstances in play - and there are many. At Peckham Rye they attempted (and partially succeeded) in doing 1, and later did 2. We don't know what happened at North Pole in enough detail to know what was attempted, but it's clear that they did not successfully achieve either.

It's worth noting though that, even if everybody onboard is capable of self-detraining (which is not always going to be the case) not everybody will necessarily do so and they will not necessarily do so at the same time. Someone who is physically fit, familiar with the local area and what alternative transport options are available who has a tight deadline will likely leave the train before someone who is infirm, doesn't know the area and who isn't in a rush.[/URL]
 
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What difference is the presence of a guard going to make?
Simply, the guard will be focused on giving the passengers information, keeping them informed etc. which leaves the driver to communicate with control, signallers etc. to work out exactly what to do. In times of disruption one person doing both is a tall order.
 

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Simply, the guard will be focused on giving the passengers information, keeping them informed etc. which leaves the driver to communicate with control, signallers etc. to work out exactly what to do. In times of disruption one person doing both is a tall order.

That's if the guard has any information to give, I think passengers rely on twitter nowadays, and the guard isn't going to be able to do much if people do decide to detrain.
 

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What difference is the presence of a guard going to make?

The driver is too busy dealing with the operational issues to deal with passengers. The guard is dedicated to the passengers and can inform and reassure them. People are more likely not to self-evacuate if they know someone is there to look after them and is providing them with timely and accurate information - and is acting as an official figure to discourage the misuse of egresses etc as well.
 

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Bravo!
The driver is too busy dealing with the operational issues to deal with passengers. The guard is dedicated to the passengers and can inform and reassure them. People are more likely not to self-evacuate if they know someone is there to look after them and is providing them with timely and accurate information - and is acting as an official figure to discourage the misuse of egresses etc as well.

Bravo from a former guard.
 

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That's if the guard has any information to give, I think passengers rely on twitter nowadays, and the guard isn't going to be able to do much if people do decide to detrain.

Hopefully the guard being able to inform passengers that there is a live electric rail immediately outside the train will deter (or at least delay) them from getting off the train.
 

Bletchleyite

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Hopefully the guard being able to inform passengers that there is a live electric rail immediately outside the train will deter (or at least delay) them from getting off the train.

Just having someone there in uniform to wander up and down the train talking to them is going to make a significant difference.
 

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Taking my own point about live rails a bit further - I wonder what the instances of detrainment by passengers are on LUL lines v NR lines?

Do passengers perceive a greater risk of electricution on LUL then they do on NR?
 

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Taking my own point about live rails a bit further - I wonder what the instances of detrainment by passengers are on LUL lines v NR lines?

Do passengers perceive a greater risk of electricution on LUL then they do on NR?
Well for a start, London Underground doesn’t have emergency egress handles at every doorway, the only way out is either by the front or back cab which can be accessed by the use of an emergency handle behind a plastic cover.

Secondly, LU handles incidents in a very different way to Network Rail. Some
members of station staff are trained to access the track and can often assist in reassuring passengers or undertaking activities to get trains moving quicker. The smaller scale of the network means that incident response staff don’t have as far to travel (although admittedly that point could just as equally apply to NR/Overground in urban areas)
especially the local line managers, or network team who often attend under blue lights driven by police. LU has a clear command structure in place with one organisation running trains and infrastructure, with targets that trains should not be stalled (stuck outside a station) for more than 60 Minutes, whilst this target isn’t always met it’s a benchmark after which people begin to get a bit fed up! In terms of electrified areas, Network Rail have very different challenges when it comes to power, with remote switching of third rail tending to involve switching off much larger sections than on the Underground potentially causing issues on lines where there isn’t an incident ongoing, and switching off overheads, especially where things like fallen wires are involved sometimes requiring earthing by electrification teams.

In short, the two organisations take a very different approach to management of incidents. Some of that comes with the territory, some of that down to the structure of the industry and their respective rule books, but I would also add that they have a lot to learn.
 

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Not only that but the New Forest one (or one of them at least) was in a station, Brockenhurst I think, so it would have been perfectly safe to leave the train - people just didn't as they had nowhere useful to go.
One of the New Forest ones was not at a station, there was at least one train stranded away from a station overnight. The weather was terrible though, the heavy snow, dark and cold probably worked as a significant deterrent to evacuation. The conditions onboard were reported as poor, but they were nothing compared to how bad the conditions were outside the train.
 

yorkie

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I'd be wary of cause and effect. All the recent self-detrainments I can recall (this one, Lewisham, Kentish Town, Notting Hill Gate) have been from high frequency metro services in a large urban area. The recent incidents that didn't result in self-detrainment (Northamptonshire, New Forest) involved long distance services coming to a stand in very rural areas.
Urban metro services are more likely to be DOO than long-distance intercity services, which are more likely to fail a significant distance from built up areas. Another factor is that if your entire journey would be ~15 minutes (without disruption) being delayed for 30 minutes is much more psychologically significant than being delayed for 30 minutes on a journey that's scheduled to take 2 hours.
Agreed!
Just having someone there in uniform to wander up and down the train talking to them is going to make a significant difference.
Yes if possible, though on a packed 12 car train it's not going to be possible. Also I would add that a TTI/OBS/OBM could do that too. It doesn't have to be a Guard.
 

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There was also a GTR train stranded in this incident (well - a passenger one - and an empty one which doesn’t need discussing) - it was located at the signal on the Down West London Line immediately behind the failed train. Due to the track layout, it had drawn forward from Shepherds Bush station, which has no Down direction starter signals on either platform.

The train conductor was contacted immediately on receipt of news that the LO service ahead was stranded, since although the train mapping software didn’t make its location obvious, it was clear to the GTR controller investigating the delays that their service would have become stranded outside the platforms.

The conductor advised on service loading and acted as a point of contact for the controllers. The GTR train was fully loaded and obviously still very close to Shepherds Bush station, and therefore a prime risk for self-detraining. Based on accurate information about the train’s position and loading, arrangements were made for the train to move back into the station in the nick of time. I can say with 100% certainty that had the controllers and conductor not dealt with this using local route knowledge, and had the driver and signaller not acted on this information, there would have been a significant problem with another 8 coaches’ worth of passengers.

What I would also add is that North Pole is a very risky area due to uneven walking routes and limited clearances, with the third rail being a very potent hazard due to its proximity to potential egress routes in places - but the problem is that the failed train probably stopped alongside or very close to a bridge parapet which looks like a deceptively easy escape route, since it is on a level with train doors if you come to a stand at the power changeover point. There is also a private level crossing at Mitre Bridge, not far away, which is clearly visible on Google Maps et al, and provides more or less unhindered access to the wider world.

Secondly, LU handles incidents in a very different way to Network Rail. Some members of station staff are trained to access the track and can often assist in reassuring passengers or undertaking activities to get trains moving quicker. The smaller scale of the network means that incident response staff don’t have as far to travel (although admittedly that point could just as equally apply to NR/Overground in urban areas) especially the local line managers, or network team who often attend under blue lights driven by police. LU has a clear command structure in place with one organisation running trains and infrastructure, with targets that trains should not be stalled (stuck outside a station) for more than 60 Minutes, whilst this target isn’t always met it’s a benchmark after which people begin to get a bit fed up!

Network Rail infrastructure has all of the above. Many of the station staff I deal with around London are PTS trained, indeed I was assisting one only the other day with arranging a fairly complicated line block in an area not so far from the one in this incident. Not that station staff are much use around North Pole (or within the few miles north of there towards the endless freight yards at Wembley), as there are very few local stations which have practical access to most of the running lines.

NR Mobile Operations Managers work jointly with BTP on the Emergency Intervention Units which regularly run on Immediate / blue-light response to urgent rail incidents. This happened with the incident in question.

There are also far more stringent Stranded Trains Risk Assessments than there used to be, although I’m not convinced the paperwork would have been needed anyway in this case, since the needs of the stranded train would have been painfully obvious to any controller with even a jot of knowledge about the West London Line.
 
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