Station Approach Speed.

dctraindriver said:

Ladbroke Grove.

Cat A spad, off track immediately at our TOC.

Overrun, stop short, wrong route accepted taken seriously as a SOL but potentially depending on your driving history you’re still in the chair on a development plan.

All serious, but SPAD means you’re off so guess it’s higher up the severity list.

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Ah yes that’s the spelling, Ladbroke.
But yes the straight off trains is true here too

ComUtoR said:

I'd agree a month. Six is excessive and maybe just something at your TOC. I knew a Driver who had a SPAD and almost had a head on collision and was back driving in less.

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It usually depends on the severity and whether network rail get involved and want to do their own investigation. Once all investigations are complete and appropriate retraining given, driver is allowed back. Could be 1 month or 6+, varies massively

ComUtoR said:

I'd agree a month. Six is excessive and maybe just something at your TOC. I knew a Driver who had a SPAD and almost had a head on collision and was back driving in less.

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I’ve never known quicker than a month unless it wasn’t a cat A.

I've known Drivers out in a couple of weeks. As you say, it depends on how long the investigation takes.

It’s the stigma with SPADs that make it a much worse incident to have.

I take the point that in reality, most SPADs are very minor (in distance) and have very low chance of an accident but the potential consequences are so severe, it is definitely taken far more seriously and long investigations are done. It’s drilled into you in training, when you’re route learning and there is of course a dedicated SPAD notice case.

PudseyBearHST said:

It’s the stigma with SPADs that make it a much worse incident to have.

I take the point that in reality, most SPADs are very minor (in distance) and have very low chance of an accident but the potential consequences are so severe, it is definitely taken far more seriously and long investigations are done. It’s drilled into you in training, when you’re route learning and there is of course a dedicated SPAD notice case.

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Exactly, thanks for putting it much more eloquently than I could.

Regards station approaches. On a dry rail at a high speed I would generally brake relatively heavily until the platform, at that point the train will be under control and I would be braking lighter to ensure my train is fully under control. Prior to stopping, I always stop in release with no application for a smooth stop both for the safety of standing passengers and for professional pride in giving a smooth ride. I do brake relatively late but with the train well under control by the time I get to the 'crunch time'. If there's a red on the end of the platform, that all goes out of the window and I (rightly) approach extremely defensively as per driving policy. In poor railhead conditions I brake much earlier and lighter to take the prevailing conditions into account.
On the subject of SPADs, a Cat A is taken much more seriously than a station overshoot which involves no SPAD. Anyone who thinks otherwise should speak to Drivers who have applied for other companies with a Cat A on their record as opposed to a station overshoot. They are both treated completely differently and rightly so. There is minimal risk associated with an overshoot, provided all rules etc are abided by during the incident and in the aftermath. A Cat A SPAD is always a potential risk and there's a shocking number of locations on the network with real potential for collisions if a signal is passed at danger even in the modern day with TPWS. Although the majority of SPADs will generally be contained within the overlap and pose a minimal risk, there are still quite a few that occur which have nearly resulted in derailments or collisions.

365 Networker said:

Oh, just heard that somewhere - but I'm happy to be corrected. Thanks for the info.

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No worries.

Just found a more up to date training video on the 3 step brake.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi2kfZKE2OQ

365 Networker said:

Just found a more up to date training video ...

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From 1996 ! The video is about low adhesion and defensive driving.

Interesting video, thanks.

Llama said:

Either somebody is unaware of fast 35mph is or how long 100m is, but hitting a platform that short (slightly more than four coach lengths) at that speed would need greater braking capability than the 12%g maximum that most rolling stock is capable of. The limits of adhesion of a dry clean wheel on a dry clean rail are only around 20%g.

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For interest, here's the quoted full service braking performance for various current and historic LU stocks, in ms-2.

56/59/62 - 1.16
60 - 1.16
67 - 1.16
72 - 1.16
73 - 1.16
83 - 1.15
92 - 1.15 (1.34 under ATO control)
95 - 1.15 (1.34 under ATO control)
96 - 1.15 (1.34 under ATO control)
09 - 1.15 (1.34 under ATO control)
A60/62 - 1.16
C69/77 - 1.16
D78 - 1.15
S - 1.15

30 mph to 0 mph in 100m is typical, 35 mph to 0 mph is pushing it but still do-able most of the time. The Victoria Line under ATO is particularly impressive.

Would be interesting to see some comparable figures for BR trains.

Any mainline driver hitting 100m platforms at 30-35 is asking for trouble, and won't be a mainline driver for long.

I have hit a short platform at 40. Admittedly I didn't mean to due to low adhesion and threw the anchors on whilst my internals devoured my trousers.

I stopped with inches to spare. There is no way I would consider anything more than 25 for a platform.

Eccles1983 said:

Any mainline driver hitting 100m platforms at 30-35 is asking for trouble, and won't be a mainline driver for long.

I have hit a short platform at 40. Admittedly I didn't mean to due to low adhesion and threw the anchors on whilst my internals devoured my trousers.

I stopped with inches to spare. There is no way I would consider anything more than 25 for a platform.

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This video shows a train coming into a platform about 28/29 mph - the device has a delay of 2 seconds, and the train stops quite smoothly.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Ta4seRYu8

365 Networker said:

This video shows a train coming into a platform about 28/29 mph - the device has a delay of 2 seconds, and the train stops quite smoothly.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Ta4seRYu8

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I see that you didn't see the caveat of platforms of 100m. Knebworth is over 150m long

365 Networker said:

This video shows a train coming into a platform about 28/29 mph - the device has a delay of 2 seconds, and the train stops quite smoothly.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Ta4seRYu8

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That platform looks significantly longer than 100m or 4 car likely closer to 12 car, and they still came in at 29

Generally for an 8 car or ≈160m-180m platform our TOC trains new drivers for 30mph at the ramp in good conditions. This will usually comfortably get you stopped in step 2, with plenty of room to go to step 1 for a comfy stop.

Some stations they like us coming in slower, even in good conditions, because of various concerns, adhesion/gradients etc....

Intellectual98 said:

That platform looks significantly longer than 100m or 4 car likely closer to 12 car, and they still came in at 29

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It looks like Knebworth, in which case the platform is about 150m.

Found an even faster approach - watch from 1:32
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-GjCByY95k
I believe this is Biggleswade.

Knebworth platforms are a shade under 170m long and Biggleswade around 245m long.

Nothing wrong with hitting platforms in the order of 200m+ at 30 or more depending on traction, gradient, conditions, signalling etc.

Eccles1983 said:

Any mainline driver hitting 100m platforms at 30-35 is asking for trouble, and won't be a mainline driver for long.

I have hit a short platform at 40. Admittedly I didn't mean to due to low adhesion and threw the anchors on whilst my internals devoured my trousers.

I stopped with inches to spare. There is no way I would consider anything more than 25 for a platform.

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In general yes you're probably right but it all comes down a mixture of route knowledge of gradients and curvature in the platform and the traction that you're driving.

I’m quite lucky that the trains I drive are pretty long, so the platforms I drive to are also long. Quite happily hit them at 40mph+ as long as there isn’t a red signal on the end of the platform.