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Station Approach Speed.

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365 Networker

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Why is it that some trains come flying into the station, and some come in painfully slow? Is it due to newer drivers being trained differently to older BR trained drivers? Rail conditions?

Please watch these two videos the first one shows a nice fast approach and the other shows a much slower one:-

-Approach begins at 25:18

-Approach begins at 48:54

As you can see there is big difference!

*Videos have been removed, please see post 19.
 
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I didn't think of that, but the slower train seems to do this at every station it approaches - it looks like it probably entering the platform about 15 mph, whereas the fast one comes in about 35 mph.
 

js1000

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Equally why do some motorists brake earlier before the traffic signals while some brake later? All preference really.

As long the train doesn't overshoot the platform/signal and does not come to an abrupt stop that could endanger standing passengers' safety that is the important thing.
 

ComUtoR

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Why is faster better, when slower may be safer ?
 

365 Networker

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Because it seems like sometimes when trains come in really slow time would be wasted. This BR Training Film shows a good approach is perfectly acceptable and safe, perhaps drivers are just trained differently now - maybe someone has a copy of the current guidelines and can see what it says on station approaches.
 
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theking

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Could be any number of reasons, I know drivers who won't take more than notch 2 of power (out of 4) no matter what the conditions are, they also brake equally as slow.
 

jopsuk

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If the train runs to time and has sufficient dwell time, does it matter that driver takes a cautious approach? The only situation I can see where a slow approach is a problem is if it causes the driver to consistently lose time and run late, and I imagine that sort of thing will be noticed and appropriate professional action taken if it is a chronic issue
 

PudseyBearHST

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Each driver has their own style of driving. Some are happy to hit stations at 60mph+ and brake in full service while others will crawl into stations. Majority are probably 30-40mph on an intercity train where you are are going to end of the platform.

I guess a big part is how your instructor taught you to drive. The older drivers tend to be far more relaxed. Some depots have a reputation for being slow haha
 

pelli

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Have you also considered where you were sitting along the length of the train? The front of a long train hits the platform with at least a train length of braking to go, while the back of the train only sees the platform crawling into view just before the train stops. Similarly, a short train may hit a long platform at different speeds depending on whether it's stopping at the near or far end of the platform.

In your examples, if you play both videos simultaneously from 1 minute before the train actually stops, is there still a noticeable difference in speed?
 

365 Networker

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I guess it just depends on the driver, in my examples the main difference is that the fast driver applies the breaks slightly later and does not release them and I would say it is about step two, the slower driver breaks much harder and earlier then releases before entering the platform and then goes between step 1 and coasting - you can hear this because of the dynamic brake.
 

jamesst

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Could be down to many different reasons from signalling to the driver themselves. If I'm coming into a platform with the starting signal at danger then I won't be above 15mph. If all's clear and conditions and location allow it it could be up to 30mph.
 

AM9

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Have you also considered where you were sitting along the length of the train? The front of a long train hits the platform with at least a train length of braking to go, while the back of the train only sees the platform crawling into view just before the train stops. Similarly, a short train may hit a long platform at different speeds depending on whether it's stopping at the near or far end of the platform.

In your examples, if you play both videos simultaneously from 1 minute before the train actually stops, is there still a noticeable difference in speed?
That was my thought. On the first train the camera is located somewhere near the front of the train, thus when it hits the Stevenage platform it still has maybe 150mm or more in which to stop. The second clip has been taken from much further back so most of the braking is done before arriving at the northern end of Hitchin station. There are other potential reasons, e.g., travelling north on the slows, it is unlikely that a train is delayed by one in front. Going south at Hitchin though, there are both ex-Peterborough and ex-Cambridge trains competing for up slow access, and the junction from the Cambridge branch is not particularly fast anyway.
 

Dave1987

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The variables in place here are huge. You can have different braking technique for a station with a 12 car platform simply because of the length of your train. If you have a full length 12 car you will end up coming in a bit faster than if you have just a 4 car and the 4 car marker is literally 4 coaches along the platform. You may have been brought to a stand on approach to the platform by the signal protecting the platform, so you are not going to accelerate too much just to slam the brakes on again etc etc
 

bramling

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Why is it that some trains come flying into the station, and some come in painfully slow? Is it due to newer drivers being trained differently to older BR trained drivers? Rail conditions?

Please watch these two videos the first one shows a nice fast approach and the other shows a much slower one:-

-Approach begins at 25:18

-Approach begins at 48:54

As you can see there is big difference!

I'd concur with the other responses which suggest that it's largely down to the individual.

There's a range of factors which might demand a more cautious approach - poor railhead conditions, red signal on the end of the platform, tighter stopping berth with less margin for error, train with dodgy brakes, someone acting strangely on the platform (etc etc), however when none of these conditions apply and all other factors remain the same there *is* still considerable variation from person to person. Simple reality is some people are more comfortable than others at hammering in at 40 mph on full or nearly-full brakes. As long as there isn't an issue with slower people losing time, or faster people having overruns, there shouldn't be a problem with this.

I'd also add that that there may well be a bias towards more long-in-the-tooth drivers coming in faster as that was much more established practice in the distant past, but a lot will also depend on who trained someone.

London Underground has quite a variation too - indeed this is one of the reasons for ATO as it's an inconsistency which ATO removes. On LU you'll find considerable variation between people with some reluctant to "hit" a platform at more than 25 mph whilst others are quite happy to do same at 35 mph. On lines with longer trains (e.g. Central, Jubilee, Victoria, Metropolitan) 40 mph is quite possible in good conditions. From personal experience I'd suggest there's little correlation between faster drivers and having more incidents. It used to be in the Rule Book that drivers should enter a platform as fast as possible, but this has drifted away in favour of defensive driving over time. Again, older hands *tend* to drive more aggressively, but as always there's exceptions. Some types of LU train in the past more or less required the driver to throw everything in and gradually release as necessary, whereas nowadays the opposite is generally taught, again old hands are more likely to drive in the first of those fashions. It's generally poor practice to be fully releasing brakes halfway down a platform - again on some types of LU train this can be inviting an overrun.

One final thing, there's also considerable variation between how drivers make their final stop. Good practice is to come to a stand on minimum or no brakes to produce a completely imperceptible stop. Again some drivers are better at this than others. Someone stopping with too much of a jolt should be being flagged up on assessments if being picky.
 
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irish_rail

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Without wanting to start world war 3 , id suggest sex is a factor!! Certainly at our place a few of the ladies are renowned for their exceptionally slow station approaches!!!!
 

Tony43

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Could it also be down to different stock for example on the GWML the new IET s tend to enter slower than the old HST s
 

HLE

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Without wanting to start world war 3 , id suggest sex is a factor!! Certainly at our place a few of the ladies are renowned for their exceptionally slow station approaches!!!!

Not the only depot then.

The age old saying different drivers different styles etc.
 

365 Networker

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BR told drivers to start in step 3 at the breaking point - perhaps drivers are no longer taught this.
 

ComUtoR

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We have moved on a lot since BR. Different stock, different rules, and a whole lot of knowledge and understanding.
 

bramling

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Does the rule book recommend approaching stations slower these days?

If you're referring to LU, then no I don't think it's there any more one way or other. I forget exactly what the historic wording was, but some time in the past there was certainly something alluding to driving as fast as conditions allow.

However nowadays there's professional driving policies and the like which tie the driver down in various ways, although in this case a certain amount of freedom remains.
 

365 Networker

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That's what I thought, I would prefer a fast approach as it just seems like some drivers who come in slow are just wasting time. (In response to irish_rail)
 

bramling

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That's what I thought, I would prefer a fast approach as it just seems like some drivers who come in slow are just wasting time. (In response to irish_rail)

Rightly or wrongly, the railway doesn't really worry about time anymore. If the driver doesn't feel comfortable coming in rapidly then they won't. It'll be flagged by management if the driver is routinely losing time or if during an assessment the assessor feels the standard is sufficiently unsatisfactory.

Having said that, I can fully understand that from a passenger point of view a spirited run is always more pleasing.

Some of the older cab-ride videos (both BR & LU) show how things used to be. ISTR the Railscene Merseyrail cab ride shows an old-hand driver charging up to red signals in the wet, but for balance the same video later shows a (different) driver overrunning a platform slightly. Likewise some of the 1990s LU cab rides show drivers charging around, including some locations where the train is over the speed limit, and a couple of locations where anticipation of signals clearing can be seen. A different world then!
 
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365 Networker

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Rightly or wrongly, the railway doesn't really worry about time anymore. If the driver doesn't feel comfortable coming in rapidly then they won't. It'll be flagged by management if the driver is routinely losing time or if during an assessment the assessor feels the standard is sufficiently unsatisfactory.

Having said that, I can fully understand that from a passenger point of view a spirited run is always more pleasing.

Yes, especially because of the sound the 365 makes when slowing down whilst using dynamic braking!
 

365 Networker

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Why do you prefer faster ? No time is 'wasted' coming in slower.

Because the train - if its an EMU sounds better coming in fast, and also its more comfortable if the braking is constant with no jolts as the brake is released and re-applied.
 

ComUtoR

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You can still apply a consistent brake when going slow(er) Avoiding the 'jolt' is the Drivers skill in their braking curve and knowledge of the traction capabilities of the unit.

Hammering it into a station increases risk.
 
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