EMR delay repay policy for EMT journey

Laketop · 16 Aug 2019

Hi all,

I thought I had generated by a recent incident - my train is over 15 minutes late: St Pancras to Nottingham, likely won't be 30 but one can hope for that sweet delay repay.

The upcoming franchise for the Midland Mainline - East Midlands Railway(EMR) will be implementing 15 minute delay repay, an improvement over East Midlands Trains(EMT) current which is a minimum of 30 minutes. That being said...

The franchise is due to change over shortly. Should the implementation of 15 minute delay repay be launched either Day 1 or within the next month, in the 30 day window of a passenger possessing a EMT train ticket liable for delay repay, could the user claim a 15 delay repay?

Many thanks!

RailUK Forums

Starmill · 16 Aug 2019

Have you been dayed today?

If you have, you'll need to claim under the East Midlands Trains policy.

Laketop · 16 Aug 2019

My specific is a delay in progress. My train is so far only 10 minutes late. - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C84197/2019/08/16/advanced

Hadders · 16 Aug 2019

Regardless of where or when you purchased your ticket if you're delayed on a journey operated by EMT then it's their Delay Repay policy that applies. If you're delayed by on a journey made by EMR then it's their delay repay policy that applies.

So for journeys made up to and including 17th August it's EMT's policy
From 17th August it's EMR

I expect a slimmed down version of EMT's website to still be available for a few weeks after the handover for delay repay claims relating to their services to be submitted.

gray1404 · 16 Aug 2019

Its the delay repay scheme in place on the date the delay occurred. So for travel today the threshold of 30 minutes will need to be meet.

flitwickbeds · 16 Aug 2019

There is a thread in the main forum discussing how the rebranding is already complete on some (most?) trains and how trains are being announced at stations and on board as being operated by East Midlands Railway.

I wonder where, legally, the company stands on conveying people on a EMR branded train, with their staff announcing it as EMR, but being forced to use a different company's refund policy?

bb21 · 16 Aug 2019

flitwickbeds said:
There is a thread in the main forum discussing how the rebranding is already complete on some (most?) trains and how trains are being announced at stations and on board as being operated by East Midlands Railway.

I wonder where, legally, the company stands on conveying people on a EMR branded train, with their staff announcing it as EMR, but being forced to use a different company's refund policy?

What announcement? EMR have not commenced operation yet so no announcement will be for EMR.

There really is no grey area on this one.

sheff1 · 16 Aug 2019

bb21 said:
What announcement? EMR have not commenced operation yet so no announcement will be for EMR.

All this week, on some trains and at some stations, trains have been announced as being operated by EMR.

flitwickbeds said:
I wonder where, legally, the company stands on conveying people on a EMR branded train, with their staff announcing it as EMR, but being forced to use a different company's refund policy?

If someone is delayed on a train announced as being an EMR train it is perfectly reasonable for them to make a Delay Repay claim to EMR. I asume the claim would be settled in accordance with the Delay Repay scheme in operation on the day the delay occurred - I have not seen any publicity about the 15 min threshold starting on 18 Aug, but from other posts it appears to be out there.

Laketop · 17 Aug 2019

My train was not delayed, so my exact situation is no longer relevant.

It begs the question - more for the regular, not as train-savvy in knowledge passenger, that if EMR implement delay repay early for 15 minutes, then what could become for someone who uses EMT and gets a 15 minute delay, such as a season ticket holder before EMR implements the time, can they be able to claim?

Hadders · 17 Aug 2019

Laketop said:
My train was not delayed, so my exact situation is no longer relevant.

It begs the question - more for the regular, not as train-savvy in knowledge passenger, that if EMR implement delay repay early for 15 minutes, then what could become for someone who uses EMT and gets a 15 minute delay, such as a season ticket holder before EMR implements the time, can they be able to claim?

I really don't understand what you're saying here. The position is quite simple:

EMT operate the trains until end of service on 17th August. If you are delayed on a service operated by EMT their delay repay scheme applies
EMR operate the trains from 18th August. If you are delayed on a service operated by EMR then their delay repay scheme applies.

The colour or branding of the trains, or the announcement made on board isn't relevant. In fact they'll probably still be EMT branded trains operating services for several weeks, and guards will probably make several slips of the tongue making announcements saying EMT when they mean EMR. Does that mean EMT;s delay repay scheme applies next week?

flitwickbeds · 17 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
I really don't understand what you're saying here. The position is quite simple:

EMT operate the trains until end of service on 17th August. If you are delayed on a service operated by EMT their delay repay scheme applies
EMR operate the trains from 18th August. If you are delayed on a service operated by EMR then their delay repay scheme applies.

The colour or branding of the trains, or the announcement made on board isn't relevant. In fact they'll probably still be EMT branded trains operating services for several weeks, and guards will probably make several slips of the tongue making announcements saying EMT when they mean EMR. Does that mean EMT;s delay repay scheme applies next week?

May I suggest you read this thread from this post onwards:
East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

The trains are ALREADY branded as EMR, the platform announcements say EMR, and the announcements on board say EMR.

This is the situation personally experienced myself last night, except the (automated) platform announcement still said EMT. The staff on board said EMR, as did the branding on the train. I suspect if there was a manual platform announcement at Luton Airport Parkway that would have said EMR too.

So yes, there is very much a grey area.

yorkie · 17 Aug 2019

Laketop said:
My train was not delayed, so my exact situation is no longer relevant.

It begs the question - more for the regular, not as train-savvy in knowledge passenger, that if EMR implement delay repay early for 15 minutes, then what could become for someone who uses EMT and gets a 15 minute delay, such as a season ticket holder before EMR implements the time, can they be able to claim?

The question does not make sense, but the short answer is: no.

Starmill · 17 Aug 2019

flitwickbeds said:
So yes, there is very much a grey area.

What?

Hadders · 17 Aug 2019

flitwickbeds said:
May I suggest you read this thread from this post onwards:
East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

The trains are ALREADY branded as EMR, the platform announcements say EMR, and the announcements on board say EMR.

This is the situation personally experienced myself last night, except the (automated) platform announcement still said EMT. The staff on board said EMR, as did the branding on the train. I suspect if there was a manual platform announcement at Luton Airport Parkway that would have said EMR too.

So yes, there is very much a grey area.

I’ve read that thread. When SWR changed to 15 minute delay repay they were still operating trains carrying SWT branding. Are you suggesting that SWTs delay compensation scheme would still apply?

As I understand it EMR 15 minute delay repay doesn’t start immediately anyway.

flitwickbeds · 17 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
I’ve read that thread. When SWR changed to 15 minute delay repay they were still operating trains carrying SWT branding. Are you suggesting that SWTs delay compensation scheme would still apply?

As I understand it EMR 15 minute delay repay doesn’t start immediately anyway.

To us enthusiasts, it's clear.
To ordinary members of the public, it may not be.

The whole re-franchising/re-branding process is a shambles anyway.

A Co-Op near me recently changed to a Budgens. They closed for a week, totally gutted and refitted the store, and rebranded the outside before opening again. Clearly that can't happen with trains which need to keep operating; but if the same process happened to that shop and I walked in to what was clearly still branded as a Co-Op but was actually a Budgens, not only would that be confusing to me and everyone else, but that might also be considered against consumer/company law. Likewise if they'd rebranded as Budgens a week early but were still operating as Co-Op, that would be the same situation.

Obviously I know you can't rebrand every train and change every announcement system at exactly 2am on Sunday morning like you could do with the shop branding over an hour or so, but you have to concede that it can be confusing and a legal grey area to the "normal person" who may have no knowledge that the franchise has even changed.

alistairlees · 17 Aug 2019

flitwickbeds said:
To us enthusiasts, it's clear.
To ordinary members of the public, it may not be.

The whole re-franchising/re-branding process is a shambles anyway.

A Co-Op near me recently changed to a Budgens. They closed for a week, totally gutted and refitted the store, and rebranded the outside before opening again. Clearly that can't happen with trains which need to keep operating; but if the same process happened to that shop and I walked in to what was clearly still branded as a Co-Op but was actually a Budgens, not only would that be confusing to me and everyone else, but that might also be considered against consumer/company law. Likewise if they'd rebranded as Budgens a week early but were still operating as Co-Op, that would be the same situation.

Obviously I know you can't rebrand every train and change every announcement system at exactly 2am on Sunday morning like you could do with the shop branding over an hour or so, but you have to concede that it can be confusing and a legal grey area to the "normal person" who may have no knowledge that the franchise has even changed.

There is no legal grey area. Today the operator is EMT. Tomorrow the operator is EMR. That’s it.

Yes, the phased changing of various brand assets (on trains, uniforms, station signage, computer systems etc.) could be confusing to customers, and I have said the same in other posts. But that doesn’t create any legal grey area.

bb21 · 17 Aug 2019

The solution is quite simple really, remove any compensation entitlement and we won't ever be doing this type of argument. :lol:

Haywain · 17 Aug 2019

bb21 said:
The solution is quite simple really, remove any compensation entitlement and we won't ever be doing this type of argument.

Some people would find themselves with no work though!

Clip · 17 Aug 2019

Laketop said:
My train was not delayed, so my exact situation is no longer relevant.

It begs the question - more for the regular, not as train-savvy in knowledge passenger, that if EMR implement delay repay early for 15 minutes, then what could become for someone who uses EMT and gets a 15 minute delay, such as a season ticket holder before EMR implements the time, can they be able to claim?

I would imagine that these 'not as savvy' travellers would send the claim into either and the people there would direct any EMT claims back to them - or maybe EMT would leave a pot of money for EMR to deal with it then take the change. I'm pretty sure that on every franchise changeover there has ever been there have been these issues and I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of them will have been settled in the normal way with no fuss if the claim went to the new franchisee.

FrankieGTH · 18 Aug 2019

Well, if you google East Midlands Trains Delay Repay, it links to the EMT Delay Repay page but automatically redirects you to the new EMR Delay Repay page.

I'm guessing the EMT Delay Repay team have lost their jobs and they have been transferred to a central Abellio DR team? A great pity all round, as the EMT Delay Repay was one of the more simpler forms and I found EMT to be extremely generous (above and beyond their own terms) in their compensation on a couple of occasions. I've read on more than one occasion on this forum about Abellio rejecting claims because a ticket is not 'defaced', even when they are or impossible to deface!

AlterEgo · 18 Aug 2019

FrankieGTH said:
I'm guessing the EMT Delay Repay team have lost their jobs and they have been transferred to a central Abellio DR team?

Unless the Delay Repay was done under contract by a third party for EMT then that's impossible, because when franchises change employees are protected under TUPE.

FrankieGTH · 18 Aug 2019

Ah, I suppose staff could move to other admin/office related roles. I assumed that EMT Delay Repay would have been done in Derby and would have now gone to a Abellio central office that deals with all Abellio claims.

Laketop · 18 Aug 2019

It does seem my question has been answered. I checked today.

When attempting to make a claim for 15 minute delay repay for any train prior to today's date (18/08/2019), you get this prompt

'We do not accept Delay Repay 15 Claims for travel prior to 18/08/2019'

Click to expand...

Which solves the question for this thread.

sheff1 · 18 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
I expect a slimmed down version of EMT's website to still be available for a few weeks after the handover for delay repay claims relating to their services to be submitted.

I half thought that too, but when I just went to make a claim for an EMT delay yesterday I could only get to the EMR Delay Repay site. My claim was "accepted" there, so no problem, but I was surprised that I was told I needed to cut the ticket in half before uploading an image - that was not a requirement the last time I did a EMT claim.

Hadders · 18 Aug 2019

Cutting tickets in half is an Abellio thing - a load of nonsense if you ask me. It can’t be that necessary or all the other TOCs would insist on it as well.

EMT must have arranged for their residual delay repay claims to be dealt with by EMR, rather than handling them themselves.

swt_passenger · 19 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
EMT must have arranged for their residual delay repay claims to be dealt with by EMR, rather than handling them themselves.

Isn’t that what has usually happened when TOCs change hands? It seems to me this is one of the subjects that crops up most times a franchise changes.

Hadders · 19 Aug 2019

Not always, sometimes the outgoing operator has kept their old website going in a slimmed down form for a few weeks to deal with delay repay claims.

EMR delay repay policy for EMT journey

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