EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

EM2 · 29 Aug 2019

I'd have more respect for Johnson if he came out and said unequivocally why he's prorogued Parliament, instead of hiding behind 'all Governments do it' (yes, for about a week) and 'it's only a few days more than we wouldn't have been sitting anyway' (yes, in recess which can be recalled, and when other work continues, and may not even have been passed in vote) and 'it's perfectly legal' (so is tax avoidance).
Just be straight and honest for a change.

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najaB · 30 Aug 2019

EM2 said:
I'd have more respect for Johnson if he came out and said unequivocally why he's prorogued Parliament

Well, he's got a new job, might as well try something else that's new, "telling the truth" I think it's called.

Geezertronic · 30 Aug 2019

najaB said:
Well, he's got a new job, might as well try something else that's new, "telling the truth" I think it's called.

MPs hardly ever tell the truth or give a straight answer for that matter. They will do what is necessary including U turns when it suits them. Corbyn is a prime example of that having been a career Euroskeptic he now appears to believe that supporting a Remain option under the guise of rejecting a No Deal will take him to power.

Aictos · 30 Aug 2019

Ianno87 said:
Not at any cost, and not without any senblance of a proper plan* to leave, which a good chunk of Leave voters would have reasonably expected to be the case.

*That I don't believe has any prospect of ever actually existing.

But May when she was PM came back with a proper plan after proper plan, all rejected because the children in parliament couldn't agree to come to any form of compromsing.

nidave · 30 Aug 2019

So we have an ulelected pm who has decided that to get what he wants has stopped our elected sovigren government from making decisions. While mps have been able to change thier minds and views on the situation as new information has become available to them yet the people, who's lives this directly impacts are not allowed to a voice to say if its still what they want as somehow this would be un-democratic.

Have I got this right.

Bletchleyite · 30 Aug 2019

Aictos said:
But May when she was PM came back with a proper plan after proper plan

All of which had one unacceptable part - the open-ended backstop in its current form.

anme · 30 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
All of which had one unacceptable part - the open-ended backstop in its current form.

Who says the backstop is unacceptable? Johnson and the mogg monster voted for it.

anme · 30 Aug 2019

Aictos said:
Bearing in mind I'm not taking sides here as both those MPs who back remain and those MPs who back leave need their heads knocking together as both are equally at fault but just remember the UK voted to leave and that vote should be respected otherwise it is not democratic as it is ignoring the will of the majority however slim to leave the EU.

Absolutely right. Those Nissan workers in Sunderland voted to lose their jobs and spend the rest of their lives on benefits. Their families too. We must respect that and get them on the dole as soon as possible.

Is that what you want?

Bletchleyite · 30 Aug 2019

anme said:
Who says the backstop is unacceptable?

The people who didn't vote for the deal, the reason having been made very clear by many that it was the reason they could not and would not vote for the deal, as it simply did not effectively constitute leaving the European Union.

Aictos · 30 Aug 2019

anme said:
Absolutely right. Those Nissan workers in Sunderland voted to lose their jobs and spend the rest of their lives on benefits. Their families too. We must respect that and get them on the dole as soon as possible.

Is that what you want?

No, what I want is for those in power to get on with Brexit and deliver it even if it means compromising between what those who want to remain and those who want to leave.

Brexit has taken up far too much of parliament’s time and needs to be resolved NOW!

Well talking of a coup, that’s exactly what Momentum is proposing and I quote “occupy bridges and blockade roads” now that certainly sounds like a undemocratic coup.

As to unelected leaders, you had Brown, May and now Johnson all became PM without first holding a general election so for Labour to kick off certainly makes them look like hyper-critics!

Controller1701 · 30 Aug 2019

anme said:
I don't really get this argument that MPs must work towards brexit. If they don't believe in it, they are fully entitled to work against it.

If leave had lost, do you think the moggster would have become an ardent remainer?

Or to put it another way, if the remainers had won with the same figures and the leavers had said this is to tight to call we want another vote, do you think that the remainers would have given another vote.....

anme · 30 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The people who didn't vote for the deal, the reason having been made very clear by many that it was the reason they could not and would not vote for the deal, as it simply did not effectively constitute leaving the European Union.

MPs have to choose between no deal or a deal with the backstop. Or not leaving at all. Or a backstop with a border in the Irish Sea (which is actually the origin plan agreed by May and the only sensible solution if you want to do something as insane as leaving the single market).

What do you suggest?

Saying that it's unacceptable is like saying gravity is unacceptable because some far right moron voted against it.

EM2 · 30 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
All of which had one unacceptable part - the open-ended backstop in its current form.

The backstop only becomes active in the event of a trade deal not being agreed. Why are those against the backstop so sure that there won't be such a deal?

anme · 30 Aug 2019

EM2 said:
The backstop only becomes active in the event of a trade deal not being agreed. Why are those against the backstop so sure that there won't be such a deal?

To be fair, no one has a solution to the Irish border problem. A trade deal is not going to solve this.
The UK has said it wants:
1. No border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
2. No border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
3. The UK to leave the single market and the customs union.

Those three things are logically contradictory. The UK can have any two, but not all three.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

EM2 said:
The backstop only becomes active in the event of a trade deal not being agreed. Why are those against the backstop so sure that there won't be such a deal?

To play Devil's advocate, such a trade deal can only be reached if/when the EU agrees to its terms. Ratifying the negotiated withdrawal agreement is the last point at which the UK could unilaterally decide to walk away from the whole thing.

EM2 · 30 Aug 2019

Stephen Barclays (Brexit Minister, in case you've forgotten who he is ) has tweeted this gem:

The car industry’s ‘just in time’ supply chains rely on fluid cross-Channel trade routes. >1,100 trucks filled with car parts cross seamlessly from EU into UK each day. We need to start talks now on how we make sure this flow continues if we leave without a deal.

NOW?!

anme · 30 Aug 2019

EM2 said:
Stephen Barclays (Brexit Minister, in case you've forgotten who he is ) has tweeted this gem:

NOW?!

Why do we need to do this? The Nissan workers in Sunderland voted to leave. Isn't it better just to let the car factories close? That's democracy.

anme · 30 Aug 2019

Aictos said:
No, what I want is for those in power to get on with Brexit and deliver it even if it means compromising between what those who want to remain and those who want to leave.

So you would be OK with the UK remaining in the single market and customs union, and keeping freedom of movement? I could live with that compromise for a few years until we have another referendum and go back in.

Paddy O'Doors · 30 Aug 2019

You've got to laugh at the sheer hypocrisy of all the remoaners saying that BJ's actions are undemocratic when their sole objective is to disregard the result of a democratic referendum.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

Paddy O'Doors said:
You've got to laugh at the sheer hypocrisy of all the remoaners saying that BJ's actions are undemocratic when their sole objective is to disregard the result of a democratic referendum.

It's good to be able to laugh at a time like this. But I think it's too simplistic to tar everyone with the same brush (on either side).

anme · 30 Aug 2019

Paddy O'Doors said:
You've got to laugh at the sheer hypocrisy of all the remoaners saying that BJ's actions are undemocratic when their sole objective is to disregard the result of a democratic referendum.

Leavers like you and the moggster need to ditch this sanctimonious nonsense. Your side has failed to deliver brexit because your people in parliament are so stupid they have voted against it. Three times. How do you propose to move forward?

jellybaby · 30 Aug 2019

Paddy O'Doors said:
You've got to laugh at the sheer hypocrisy of all the remoaners saying that BJ's actions are undemocratic when their sole objective is to disregard the result of a democratic referendum.

I'm a 'remoaner' that isn't complaining about Prime Minister Johnson's actions being undemocratic or otherwise. They are without a mandate. I've no idea what people that voted to leave wanted but I don't recall many people suggesting there would be no deal, perhaps you can provide some references?

Mag_seven · 30 Aug 2019

Paddy O'Doors said:
You've got to laugh at the sheer hypocrisy of all the remoaners saying that BJ's actions are undemocratic when their sole objective is to disregard the result of a democratic referendum.

The result was only advisory - any government with backbone would disregard the result as a pack of lies were told. Trouble is certain members of this government were complicit in those lies.

edwin_m · 30 Aug 2019

Controller1701 said:
Or to put it another way, if the remainers had won with the same figures and the leavers had said this is to tight to call we want another vote, do you think that the remainers would have given another vote.....

Paddy O'Doors said:
You've got to laugh at the sheer hypocrisy of all the remoaners saying that BJ's actions are undemocratic when their sole objective is to disregard the result of a democratic referendum.

If there had been any new information that made the case for leaving significantly better, then yes there would have been a case for another vote.

There has been new information that makes the case for leaving significantly worse, so yes there should be another vote.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

Mag_seven said:
The result was only advisory - any government with backbone would disregard the result as a pack of lies were told.

That doesn't match my recollections of 2016. Voices from the continent were whispering "you're not going to actually go ahead, are you?", whereas UK politicians were generally saying loudly "this is the result, we have to follow through on it". The impression I got was that waving the result away as advisory would have been the weaker way out. Mind you, a lot has happened since then.

anme · 30 Aug 2019

Big news! Nigel Farage and a lot of other leave campaigners have come out in favour of remaining the in the single market!

This will change things in a big way.

nlogax · 30 Aug 2019

mmh said:
The Mail isn't pro-Brexit since Paul Dacre left as editor.

Untrue. For a while there was a reversal of opinion re. hard Brexit, but the DM has turned out to be resolutely pro-Boris Johnson and his prorogation tactics.

Paddy O'Doors · 30 Aug 2019

anme said:
How do you propose to move forward?

Leave ASAP, preferably without a "deal"

Paddy O'Doors · 30 Aug 2019

Mag_seven said:
a pack of lies were told.

On both sides let's not forget.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

Paddy O'Doors said:
Leave ASAP, preferably without a "deal"

That's certainly a proposal, and it may turn out to be what happens. Not everyone agrees with it, though.

EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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