Suggestion for one fare between Stockport and Manchester

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transport-for-wales-only-fares.192217/#post-4207401

It is utterly ludicrous that a 10 minute journey has all these TOC specific fares in the first place, to be honest. There should be one fare, ideally valid via any combination of train, tram and bus.

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yorkie · 17 Sep 2019

OK. What would the price be?

Kite159 · 17 Sep 2019

Agreed, only because the TOCs offering the "TOC only" fare gets 100% of the revenue than a tiny percentage of the "any permitted" fare as they only run hourly services compared to 3tph for Virgin, 2tph for XC & ~ 7tph for Northern during the day.

How many passengers simply buy the cheapest "TPE only" fare and chance their luck at not getting gripped on the short distance. TPE will be laughing to the bank, all that extra revenue for not carrying anymore passengers.

TOC only fares should be restricted to flows where there is a notable different in speed, for example Northern only for the Stoke/Crewe stoppers

yorkie · 17 Sep 2019

The only reason TOC only fares are a big problem is because you can't excess them.

A Challenge · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
The only reason TOC only fares are a big problem is because you can't excess them.

I imagine this has been done before, but why can't the DfT change it so they can?

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
OK. What would the price be?

To make it revenue neutral? The mean fare paid by all passengers at present.

Haywain · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
To make it revenue neutral? The mean fare paid by all passengers at present.

That would make it price neutral but would it be revenue neutral for all of the TOCs, rather than just overall? Or would there be winners and losers amongst TOCs as well as passengers?

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

Haywain said:
That would make it price neutral but would it be revenue neutral for all of the TOCs, rather than just overall? Or would there be winners and losers amongst TOCs as well as passengers?

I'd imagine there would, but the situation really is beyond ridiculous.

Joe Paxton · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
The only reason TOC only fares are a big problem is because you can't excess them.

I disagree - I think if you asked, many actual and potential passengers would think it rather absurd and bewildering to have such an array of fares for such a short journey.

yorkie · 17 Sep 2019

Joe Paxton said:
I disagree - I think if you asked, many actual and potential passengers would think it rather absurd and bewildering to have such an array of fares for such a short journey.

But if you knew it would be easy to exchange the ticket for one valid on any operator, would an operator specific be an issue then?

Bletchleyite said:
To make it revenue neutral? The mean fare paid by all passengers at present.

There is no "fare paid by all passengers" at present.

Is the proposal for everyone to pay £4.10 each way? Or something else?

At present fares start from £2.40 return.

Wallsendmag · 17 Sep 2019

For me this is a hard one , they are a real pain to retail. For instance Newcastle to York please are you travelling TPE,XC or any? And on the way back do you know? But I can see why the TOCs do it and if you remove them the passenger is the loser as they will pay more.

sheff1 · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
There should be one fare, ideally valid via any combination of train, tram and bus.

I agree. In most other Western European contries zonal or flat fares, available on all modes, is the standard ticketing system in major metropolitan areas.

Joe Paxton · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
But if you knew it would be easy to exchange the ticket for one valid on any operator, would an operator specific be an issue then?

Yes, for short journeys like this at least.

I think there's a bigger picture issue here.

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
But if you knew it would be easy to exchange the ticket for one valid on any operator, would an operator specific be an issue then?

It would be less of an issue, but still stupid. I can understand the need for competition on long-distance routes where different operators will often have genuinely different value propositions - for instance, from Liverpool to London you can cough up a fortune for a fast journey on a Pendolino with on-board catering, or you can pay next to nothing for a slow journey which might well be on an overcrowded 350/2 with no facilities at all bar a seat if you're lucky and a working toilet if you're even luckier - but if you take your own cup of tea and don't mind sitting on the floor and have a strong bladder you can get a bargain. But that never really happens on short journeys (up to about an hour), so what you get is pointless complication caused by several TOCs offering basically the same value proposition with fares differing in price by less than a quid.

It's really, really silly. The Verbundtarif (joint tariff) is a far better system for city and short-journey local transport pricing - charge for the journey, not the mode, let alone the operator.

yorkie · 17 Sep 2019

sheff1 said:
I agree. In most other Western European contries zonal or flat fares, available on all modes, is the standard ticketing system in major metropolitan areas.

But they'd charge less than £4 for a single journey. The problem is that simply removing the better value fare, and preventing TOCs from selling cheaper fares, and pushing up the price, isn't the answer.

yorkie · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's really, really silly. The Verbundtarif (joint tariff) is a far better system for city and short-journey local transport pricing - charge for the journey, not the mode, let alone the operator.

Sure, I agree, as long as the price is reasonable and doesn't result in anyone paying more. Sadly that isn't going to actually happen, as much as we wish it would!

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
But they'd charge less than £4 for a single journey. The problem is that simply removing the better value fare, and preventing TOCs from selling cheaper fares, and pushing up the price, isn't the answer.

Isn't it? £4 strikes me as completely reasonable for that journey. The "race to the bottom" of to-the-bone cost cutting is neither necessary nor appropriate.

Competition works when it segments the market by allowing the development of different value propositions and customer-friendly innovation, which can also grow the market - be that LNR vs. VT, or be that Ryanair vs. BA. Where it doesn't, it becomes a short-term petty tiff that just results in things being worse overall for everyone. Nowhere else is this more visible than "bus wars" - an incredibly negative thing if I ever saw one. There's just no sensible scope for competition in local railway journeys, as everyone (other than enthusiasts after a specific type of rolling stock) simply wants to take the next (fastest) train - there is really no alternate value proposition possible.

Funnily enough, most European countries seem to recognise this difference.

yorkie · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Isn't it? £4 strikes me as completely reasonable for that journey. The "race to the bottom" of to-the-bone cost cutting is neither necessary nor appropriate..

So you are proposing the cost of a return for people who currently take TfW off peak to increase from £2.40 to £8.20?

(Based on my understanding that you want there to be one fare only, and you support single leg pricing)

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
So you are proposing the cost of a return for people who currently take TfW off peak to increase from £2.40 to £8.20?

(Based on my understanding that you want there to be one fare only, and you support single leg pricing)

Ah, I was working on the basis of the present fare structure, i.e. with local returns being 5p more than singles.

If we are also going for single-leg pricing, I would probably propose singles costing around half the present return, taking into account that almost nobody does single journeys in that kind of context.

I don't agree we have to ensure that no individual ends up paying more - it is impossible to make changes without winners and losers. Revenue-neutral is good enough for me for any change that has other benefits such as removal of complexity.

That flow really needs nothing more than an Off Peak Day Single (+1st), an Anytime Day Single (+1st) and the various GMPTE Rovers.

yorkie · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That flow really needs nothing more than an Off Peak Day Single (+1st), an Anytime Day Single (+1st) and the various GMPTE Rovers.

So not quite just one fare then

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
So not quite just one fare then

Not one fare, but one fare set with no TOC specific fares. I perhaps worded my original post badly.

alistairlees · 17 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
So not quite just one fare then

Well, there are currently 9 Standard Class return fares and 6 Standard Class single fares. Plus seasons. Plus rovers. Plus First Class fares. All for a 6 mile journey. Where both stations are in the same county / PTE. No wonder customers / passengers don’t trust TOCs when it’s all so massively confusing.

Joe Paxton · 17 Sep 2019

alistairlees said:
Well, there are currently 9 Standard Class return fares and 6 Standard Class single fares. Plus seasons. Plus rovers. Plus First Class fares. All for a 6 mile journey. Where both stations are in the same county / PTE. No wonder customers / passengers don’t trust TOCs when it’s all so massively confusing.

That's essentially my take on it as well. And it's not just current passengers we need to think about, but prospective passengers - those who might well find it all so opaque and impenetrable they just give up, or travel by train with a reluctant grimace.

Running Pete · 18 Sep 2019

£2 single, £3:50 return, £15 weekly ticket.
Undercuts the bus fare and significantly quicker, although Piccadilly Is a bit of a hike from a lot of the City.

Bletchleyite · 18 Sep 2019

Running Pete said:
£2 single, £3:50 return, £15 weekly ticket.
Undercuts the bus fare and significantly quicker, although Piccadilly Is a bit of a hike from a lot of the City.

Ideally it'd be a Verbundtarif with the bus costing the same.

telstarbox · 18 Sep 2019

Why should the bus cost the same when it takes significantly longer?

Bletchleyite · 18 Sep 2019

telstarbox said:
Why should the bus cost the same when it takes significantly longer?

Because you're not market-differentiating in local transport, you're simply paying a fee to use the system which you may use as you wish in any combination to get to your desired destination. The fare is the price of getting from point A to point B, not in any way related to how you get there. For instance, if you're going to somewhere on the 192 route between two stations, why should you have to pay two fares to get the train to say Stockport and connect to the bus? This should be encouraged, not discouraged.

In city transport we need to stop thinking about "bus fares" and "train fares" and start considering the entire thing as a transport network - bus, train and tram (and ferry in places like Merseyside).

There's the "social argument" of the bus being cheaper for poorer people, but it's better to get benefits and concessions right (allowing poorer people to use the same city transport modes as richer people) than differentiating in that way.

Starmill · 18 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Isn't it? £4 strikes me as completely reasonable for that journey. The "race to the bottom" of to-the-bone cost cutting is neither necessary nor appropriate.

Seriously? £4.10 for a single from Manchester to Stockport? That comes out at more than 50p a mile. Pretty terrible value for money for what is by far the most efficient mode of transport? The £1.50 I paid for the journey, or £2.30 at adult rate, seems to me to be the maximum that should be charged for a single journey by any out of bus, train and tram from Manchester to Stockport (8 miles), in order to properly encourage public transport use.

Even for this journey, lots of people I know drive (ironically, the confusion over tickets causing my mother to be threatened with a Penalty Fare at Manchester Piccadilly is one of the reasons she drives this journey).

Bletchleyite said:
That flow really needs nothing more than an Off Peak Day Single (+1st)

For most flows in the area, these options are not currently available. For example look at Cheadle Hulme or Heaton Chapel to Manchester, they just have one single and that is that.

Starmill · 18 Sep 2019

Running Pete said:
Undercuts the bus fare and significantly quicker, although Piccadilly Is a bit of a hike from a lot of the City.

Most of the tickets can currently be used to at least one out of Manchester's Oxford Road, Deansgate and Victoria stations in addition to Manchester Piccadilly. Many of the tickets are also valid on Metrolink Zone 1 tram services. Ironically, the TfW Only ticket is the only one that's valid as far as Piccadilly and no further.

A Challenge · 18 Sep 2019

Starmill said:
Ironically, the TfW Only ticket is the only one that's valid as far as Piccadilly and no further.

What about the Virgin Trains Only one?

Suggestion for one fare between Stockport and Manchester

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