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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Aictos

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Literacy clearly isn't your strongpoint if you got "the EU is perfect" from what I said.

I note you're VERY quiet on my point about fishing, which showed you to be plain wrong. No comments? None at all? How bizarre.



No, I don't. No politicial institution is. It's impossible.

I think the relationship fundamentally works, both for us and the EU. We got a lot of free passes because of our clout, e.g. Schengen, the rebate. Things can always be improved, but sadly the Brexitists' solution is to park a Transit van full of Semtex under it.

Reason I can’t be bothered to reply on this specific thread is the majority of RUK is rabid EU and despite the majority of the UK voted to leave want to do nothing but overturn that vote.

That’s from someone who’s fed up of all the bickering between rabid Brexit and rabid EU followers who can’t do what’s right for the country.
 
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Paddy O'Doors

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I would say that remark shows that you don't understand anything about the arguments for a referendum on the specific Brexit plan, and you just, apparently, want to keep insulting remainers without trying to understand the points they are making :(

I don't recall insulting anyone.
 

Paddy O'Doors

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I would say that remark shows that you don't understand anything about the arguments for a referendum on the specific Brexit plan, and you just, apparently, want to keep insulting remainers without trying to understand the points they are making

Maybe I'm just one of the millions of stupid people that didn't know what they were doing.
 

najaB

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Maybe I'm just one of the millions of stupid people that didn't know what they were doing.
Maybe you were fully informed of all the consequences of a hard Brexit, maybe you weren't.

Either way there is no harm in asking the public what kind of Brexit they want since the original vote didn't give us any choice.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Maybe I'm just one of the millions of stupid people that didn't know what they were doing.

Well if you want to show that you do understand the arguments, how about (a) answering my points, and (b) stop posting complete misrepresentations of what those of us on the pro-2nd-referendum side are actually arguing?
 

Bantamzen

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Not the sole reason but one of the reasons that many people voted to leave.

And is one of the reasons why the referendum campaigns were flawed. The vote itself did not specify any change to freedom of movement, that was a later government policy. Even if the government did limit movement from the EU, there is still the possibility that future trade deals with developing economies would include a relaxation of movement for work and education purposes between those countries and the EU. Indeed if I recall correctly India is one such country that has indicated that as part of a new deal, they would like their citizens to have greater opportunities in the UK.

This is a reality of modern day trade dealings, we can no longer just bully up to a country and start punting our wears there, we will have to negotiate and compromise, which may or may not include changing our immigration policies with respect to people from those countries. I suspect in all the leave bluster, this reality may well have escaped many leave voters thinking that freedom of movement would reduce.
 

SteveP29

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It was called the British Empire, where we annexed countries and forced them to trade with us

(Still catching up from my holiday last month, this is from page 668)

You mean we pillaged them, gave them the shi**y end of the stick in trade terms and basically treat them like sh*t, now the leavers expect they're just going to open their doors to us like old friends
 

SteveP29

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Now my maths might not be good but I would say the EU as in France and Denmark get far more out of fishing in UK waters then we do by fishing in their waters and that's is unfair!

The above figures show that the French take on average around 10 times in UK waters what the UK take in French waters while the Danish take on average 9 times in UK waters what the UK takes in Danish waters.

I don't have a issue with the EU but I do have a issue with EU partners overfishing in our own waters and that has to stop or least the EU partners need to reduce the amount of fish they take in our waters.

Maybe we could fish our waters more then? But we choose not to.

All very interesting, but glosses over one huge and rather salient point: the owners of UK fishing rights have sold most of their fishing rights to foreign trawlers. Most other European governments don't allow that, but we do. We've sold 88% of the Welsh quota to Spanish trawlers, for instance.

You beat me to it Arctic Troll, Bantamzen, did you not consider the fact that British fishermen sold their quotas to other countries/ other fishermen.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/

More than a quarter of the United Kingdom’s fishing quota is in the hands of a tiny group of the country’s wealthiest families, an Unearthed investigation has found.

Just five families on the Sunday Times Rich List hold or control 29% of the UK’s fishing quota.[/Quote)

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-pinching-our-fish/

The UK’s share of the overall EU fishing catch grew between 2004 and 2014. In 2004 the UK had the fourth largest catch of any EU country at 652,000 tonnes, by 2014 this had grown to 752,000 tonnes and the second largest catch of any country in the EU.[/Quote) but the EU are taking our fish!!
 

najaB

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I'd be surprised if anyone did.
Mohammed Younis said:
I have chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and struggle to walk. And I stopped working in 1996, when I found out I had a brain tumour. I believed the bus advert that said the NHS would get £350m if we left the EU. The NHS has been going down the pan, and, instead of sending that money to Brussels, I thought it would be wicked if we could get better funding. Soon after, it became clear we weren’t going to get that money. I felt betrayed and disappointed that people in power had been lying.
Source: The Guardian

I suppose this direct quote doesn't exist?
I saw next to no advertising that swayed my voting. I knew what I was voting for and why.
You might not have, but others did.
 

Esker-pades

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Sorry, but you lost me at this single bit so I didn't bother to read the rest of what you wrote.

You don't know that NOBODY understood what voting leave meant. Or rather, that 17.4 million people didn't fully understand the potential consequences.

Just because you believed whatever Vote Leave told you, then figured out they lied / bent the truth / white lies / whatever, doesn't mean everyone did, or that everyone who voted leave did.
I'd be surprised if anyone did.

I saw next to no advertising that swayed my voting. I knew what I was voting for and why.
My emphasis.

Nobody who voted leave believed Vote Leave? Have I understood the bits in bold correctly?

Why did you vote to leave? Does it still stand now? What will be gained from leaving?
(Those are all genuine questions.)
 

Aictos

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What was so bad about our relationship with the EU that allowed us to stay out of Schengen, not adopt the Euro and have a veto on most decisions?

The original idea of the EEC to trade was a good idea but over time the EU as it is has got bloated and inefficient which is why reforms are needed.

I appreciate being able to trade and exchange knowledge/skills but I’m not keen on the politics of the bloc.

Schengen is a good idea and one I warmly welcomed.

The other point I struggle to understand is simply is the EU doing enough to settle migrants and also why countries like Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States can’t do more?
 

SteveP29

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It seems Johnson asked for the press conference to be moved inside due to the noise being made by protestors. This seems a reasonable request and the fact it was refused suggests he's seriously annoyed someone in Luxembourg who is now treating him like a badly-behaved toddler.

As has already been clarified, the inside option was far smaller than the invited crowd of press could hold, plus, the logistics of moving everything indoors would have taken too long to make the conference worthwhile.

Yes, the result was clearly in favour of leaving the EU.
I can only speak for myself but I voted to leave the EU and I'm not bothered if we leave without a "deal", just as long as we leave.

Maybe I'm just one of the millions of stupid people that didn't know what they were doing.

If the cap fits :)

Erm hold on, that quote isn't from me!

My apologies, that just emphasises that I shouldn't comment till the end, instead of building up several quotes on each page, especially when I was so many pages behind. Apologies again.
 

Cowley

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As has already been clarified, the inside option was far smaller than the invited crowd of press could hold, plus, the logistics of moving everything indoors would have taken too long to make the conference worthwhile.





If the cap fits :)



My apologies, that just emphasises that I shouldn't comment till the end, instead of building up several quotes on each page, especially when I was so many pages behind. Apologies again.
You’re going to need another holiday after wading through this thread.
 

EM2

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I voted to leave the EU and I'm not bothered if we leave without a "deal", just as long as we leave.
So you'd be happy with a Norway-style arrangement then?
[Re: Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein] That may well be, and I stand to be corrected on this, but don't they have to accept certain rules/conditions from the EU to be able to do so?
But they aren't EU members. Therefore the arrangements that they have would satisfy your requirement to leave.
That isn't actually what you want though, is it?
 

VauxhallandI

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Maybe I'm just one of the millions of stupid people that didn't know what they were doing.

I'm not sure you comprehend how jaw dropping you are to some people, it's almost like I think you may be a wind up merchant.

If I may could you answer these?

Name some things that are bad about no deal Brexit and some things that are good about remaining in the EU?
 

dgl

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I do feel sorry for some of the brexiteers though, imagine being one of the many auto industry workers who despite the promises now risk looking their livelihoods or deprived parts of the country losing a lot of funding (which no conservative government would ever replace) thanks to a dirty campaign run by people who will either make a shed load of cash out of it (speculating, removal of workers rights) or just want to cause trouble.
Yes admittedly the EU is not perfect, like a lot of things but currently it is the best option and despite some people's opinion we should stay until when/if there is a better option, and if that happens there should be a referendum on the options available not just yes/no.
 

Esker-pades

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Yes admittedly the EU is not perfect, like a lot of things but currently it is the best option and despite some people's opinion we should stay until when/if there is a better option, and if that happens there should be a referendum on the options available not just yes/no.
This is pretty much my position. The EU isn't great, but I can't find evidence that us leaving it will put us in a better position.


Honestly, I'd love to just be able to think that everything will be fine if we leave (especially with no deal). It would make my life far less stressful.
 

AM9

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I do feel sorry for some of the brexiteers though, imagine being one of the many auto industry workers who despite the promises now risk looking their livelihoods or deprived parts of the country losing a lot of funding (which no conservative government would ever replace) thanks to a dirty campaign run by people who will either make a shed load of cash out of it (speculating, removal of workers rights) or just want to cause trouble.
Yes admittedly the EU is not perfect, like a lot of things but currently it is the best option and despite some people's opinion we should stay until when/if there is a better option, and if that happens there should be a referendum on the options available not just yes/no.
I will feel a lot more sorry for them if we do leave as not only will their current lifestyle be destroyed, but they will have to live with the decision to ignore good advice. Those who 'just want to cause trouble' may find that they are turned upon by many who are suffering.
 

dgl

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I will feel a lot more sorry for them if we do leave as not only will their current lifestyle be destroyed, but they will have to live with the decision to ignore good advice. Those who 'just want to cause trouble' may find that they are turned upon by many who are suffering.

Correct about the second point, the problem with the first statement as we have seen with anti-vaxers and flat earthers is that some people are unfortunately easy to manipulate, esp. when you give them an easy excuse (if incorrect) for the U.K.'s problems.

But then again if you ask a Brexiteer for a proper/sensible reason for leaving you won't get one, the 'will of the people' is not an answer.
 

Esker-pades

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trouble is, Sterling is crashing up. Up 0.02 in the last month
Perhaps due to the vote to block a no-deal Brexit?
https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GBPUSD:CUR
This graph shows the biggest jump just after said vote.

If you're actually arguing that Brexit has not caused the pound to crash, take a look at the 5 year graph and explain what happened there...
 

bramling

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Correct about the second point, the problem with the first statement as we have seen with anti-vaxers and flat earthers is that some people are unfortunately easy to manipulate, esp. when you give them an easy excuse (if incorrect) for the U.K.'s problems.

But then again if you ask a Brexiteer for a proper/sensible reason for leaving you won't get one, the 'will of the people' is not an answer.

Notwithstanding plenty of other factors, in my view not wishing to be on the receiving end of decisions taken by highly remote politicians / institutions who have virtually no accountability to British citizens is in its own a proper reason.
 

edwin_m

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Notwithstanding plenty of other factors, in my view not wishing to be on the receiving end of decisions taken by highly remote politicians / institutions who have virtually no accountability to British citizens is in its own a proper reason.
Like the one who's come to power on a vote of 0.1% of the electorate and is actively following a policy very different from the 2017 manifesto?
 

fowler9

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Notwithstanding plenty of other factors, in my view not wishing to be on the receiving end of decisions taken by highly remote politicians / institutions who have virtually no accountability to British citizens is in its own a proper reason.
With the greatest of respect I'm sure you have heard of Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings who have a great deal of power over what happens in the UK. Johnson I had little power over his influence and as for Cummings I had none at all. What is the difference with the EU. Cummings is a nut job I want nowhere near the running of the country I live in and yet here he is. Did you vote for him?
 

bramling

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With the greatest of respect I'm sure you have heard of Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings who have a great deal of power over what happens in the UK. Johnson I had little power over his influence and as for Cummings I had none at all. What is the difference with the EU. Cummings is a nut job I want nowhere near the running of the country I live in and yet here he is. Did you vote for him?

I sort of agree about Cummings, and agree that he appears to be a loose cannon. However, if the leader of our elected government chooses to enlist the support of such a person (in what is effectively a consultancy role) then that is their prerogative. If enough people feel strongly enough about it then there are mechanisms that can be used to stop the situation.

As regards Johnson, he is our prime minister and he was one of two candidates put forward by Conservative MPs, all of whom are elected. Likewise if people aren’t happy with Johnson they are ultimately guaranteed an opportunity to vote him out of power, even if not straight away.

At the end of the day Johnson feels a lot more relevant to me than Juncker or Tusk, both politically and geographically. At the basest possible level Johnson is a lot more accessible, and presides over just one country, serving a population to match rather than that of the whole EU. I seem to remember even our government weren’t happy with Juncker’s appointment at the time.
 

dcsprior

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Which every child over the age of 6 knows they can't do if no-deal is off the table. You can't negotiate if the opponent knows you have no choice but to take whatever they offer.
The EU are not our opponent here, they're (hopefully following any remotely sane brexit) our trading partner.
Like other activities involving a partner, if you seek to "win" at trade to the detriment of your partner, you're doing it wrong.
 

Bantamzen

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As regards Johnson, he is our prime minister and he was one of two candidates put forward by Conservative MPs, all of whom are elected. Likewise if people aren’t happy with Johnson they are ultimately guaranteed an opportunity to vote him out of power, even if not straight away.

So how is a tiny minority of cash contributing Conservative Party members, voting for one of two candidates selected by a minority of MPs in Parliament in any way more democratic than how the EU works? Answers on a postcard please....

At the end of the day Johnson feels a lot more relevant to me than Juncker or Tusk, both politically and geographically. At the basest possible level Johnson is a lot more accessible, and presides over just one country, serving a population to match rather than that of the whole EU. I seem to remember even our government weren’t happy with Juncker’s appointment at the time.

To you maybe, but for a lot of people Johnson is no more relevant politically, especially as to date he seems to have dodged any kind of responsibility or work ever since he's been in office, preferring to go on a Trump-style publicity tour which is clearly no more than a prelude to an election campaign. I've never know a PM do less in their opening months as the current "leader" of this country, but if guff and hot air is your thing then that is of course your prerogative.

As for geographical distance, I'm afraid what a lot of hard core Brexiteers seem to have lost sight of is that the world as we knew it is long gone. The world over alliances & unions across borders are what drive both politics & economics, not isolationism. For the best part of four years since Cameron announced the referendum, those hard core leavers have been dreaming of a United Kingdom standing completely on it's own, with no outside influences. It is to say the least laughably naïve, especially when no deal loomed into view the & very same isolationists embraced a global institution's tariff system, a body to which we have as members of the public zero say in. Challenge them on that, and all they come back with is "But Brexit means Brexit!". Its a recurring theme, Brexit has to happen no matter what, and any means no matter how damaging to get there, and shout down any opposition. And the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Well they'll tell us is we'll regain our sovereignty, but we never actually lost that, so how we regain what we never lost?

The truth is I'm afraid that from starting as an aspiration to re-position ourselves politically & economically, Brexit has descended into nothing more than a vanity project with little more than the promise of a different passport cover, and a paper exercise in moving bureaucratic cogs & wheels from Whitehall and Brussels, to Whitehall only. They'll be no great shift in power, no greater say for Joe Public, no pops, bells, whistles, rainbows or unicorns. All we will get is the daunting task of either rebuilding our relationship with the EU during a transitional period to the end of 2020 in the case of a deal, with the hope of piggy backing onto trade deals with more than 70 other countries. Or the even more daunting task of rebuilding the bridges with the EU burnt to the ground by the hard core Brexiteers, trying to get anything like a similar deal that we might have got with them, tackling over 70 new trade deals with countries and economic alliances around the globe, all whilst the economy almost certainly shrinks in the case of a no deal scenario.

It should be a no-brainer, if a deal cannot be reached & agreed by the end of next month, put a hold on Brexit, take it back to the country with a more detailed & informed referendum to decide the exact route, then get the best out of that. Sadly some of the population seem to have left their brains at home, and are simply dancing to the tunes piped out by the likes of Johnson, Cummings & Farage straight towards the river....
 
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