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GWR Dec 19 timetable

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irish_rail

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The all of two or three HSTs a day in either direction many years ago were not calling at Worcestershire Parkway, Pershore, Honeybourne, Hanborough and Reading - and there were also far fewer trains all the way to or from London to get in their way. The substantial sums of money generated in fares from the intermediate stations between Worcester and Oxford are what allow Worcester to have the frequency of services to and from London it now enjoys, so given a choice between fast trains for the Worcester market, or getting in the revenue at the intermediate stations, there will only be one winner..

Until the early 1990s, there were no other through trains to or from London the rest of the day, with a change at Oxford the rule. From 1993 until 2004, almost all of the London service was Turbo dmus - things have change a bit since then.

The single-line sections at either end of the Cotswold Line are still there, and the need to be able to timetable trains through those without services getting in each others' way is vital to ensure the timetable is robust and reliable. Lack of reliability was a reason why lots of people from the Worcester area kept claiming it made sense to drive all the way to Warwick Parkway to reach London, despite there being no journey time or cost advantage. Recent improvements in Cotswold Line reliability seem to have resulted in a rise in traffic from Worcester, so no one is going to risk that by implementing a timetable that does not work, however exciting the end-to-end journey times look on paper.

There is nothing much to be gained by raising speed limits, due in large part to the close spacing of the intermediate stations, except perhaps the 75mph between Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh. But even here the 60mph restriction at Aston Magna curve will not change, so any journey time gain would be minimal.

The majority of services in both directions are in the range of 2hrs to 2hrs 15mins, with a couple of sub-2hr journeys as well.

The late afternoon trains out of Worcester are most important for people heading home to the Vale of Evesham and they (and the 05.50 from Paddington in the morning) all cross a series of very busy trains heading in the other direction, which it would not be a good idea to delay, hence the more generous timings and extended dwells in places. The number of people making end to end journeys on those trains is limited. The same goes for the 22.00 from Hereford to London, which has an extended schedule to allow for late-night engineering work on the GWML between Didcot and London.
Just for accuracy, you point out that "there were fewer trains to London to get in the way" (Of the Cotswold trains). Actually it is the Cotswold trains calling at slough which slow down and get in the way of other trains, and, come December will contribute to slowing down Plymouth to London trains further, due to being pathed to leave Reading just behind the Slough stopping ex Cotswold. So it is not just the Cotswold who's journey times are not significantly improved, the wofe line between Plymouth and padd barely sees an improvement either. Rather unfair when one looks at how speeded up the bristol service will be.....
 
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JN114

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You two seriously need to get a room...

Of the 18 Plymouth to Paddington trains in the December TT (Weekdays)...

8 Follow IETs off the Cotswolds calling at Slough
8 Folllow other IETs that don’t call at Slough
2 are timed to run on the Relief lines late at night and aren’t really representative (of which 1 is the sleeper)

Journey times from Reading to Paddington vary between 23 and 29 minutes; with the slowest run following an Up Swansea that does not call at Slough. 23 minutes is achieved both when the preceding train calls and does not call at Slough.

Full Analysis attached:-
 

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jimm

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Just for accuracy, you point out that "there were fewer trains to London to get in the way" (Of the Cotswold trains). Actually it is the Cotswold trains calling at slough which slow down and get in the way of other trains, and, come December will contribute to slowing down Plymouth to London trains further, due to being pathed to leave Reading just behind the Slough stopping ex Cotswold. So it is not just the Cotswold who's journey times are not significantly improved, the wofe line between Plymouth and padd barely sees an improvement either. Rather unfair when one looks at how speeded up the bristol service will be.....

I was referring to there being fewer trains on the GWML overall in the days when a couple of limited-stop HSTs got between Worcester and London in under 2 hours with just five intermediate stops. As going on about what happened in ye olden days is not much help when looking at where we are today.

And things have changed rather a lot between London, Reading and Didcot, such as the number of trains using the fast lines, over the past 20 or so years - the introduction of Heathrow Express in 1998, the start of the half-hourly GW frequencies between London and Bristol/Cardiff and then the December 2006 timetable change, which brought in the all-day half-hourly Oxford fast service and put an end to the couple of peak Hereford-London and return HSTs running at random times amid the previous NSE/Thames/FGW Link hourly fasts between London and Oxford.

That's seven extra paths to accommodate between Paddington and Airport Junction, never mind any increased frequencies on other services since then, or those coming in December and next year once the full 4tph Bristol off-peak service is operating.

I was not referring to fast-line calls at Slough and whatever effect you claim they have on West Country trains, which, as JN114 notes, will be running at the same sorts of timings as other fast line trains between Reading and Paddington from December anyway.
 
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irish_rail

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You two seriously need to get a room...

Of the 18 Plymouth to Paddington trains in the December TT (Weekdays)...

8 Follow IETs off the Cotswolds calling at Slough
8 Folllow other IETs that don’t call at Slough
2 are timed to run on the Relief lines late at night and aren’t really representative (of which 1 is the sleeper)

Journey times from Reading to Paddington vary between 23 and 29 minutes; with the slowest run following an Up Swansea that does not call at Slough. 23 minutes is achieved both when the preceding train calls and does not call at Slough.

Full Analysis attached:-
Thanks for this post , interesting reading. Dissapointinly it shows the current fastest ply to pad time of 3hr and 1 min becomes 3hr and 7 mins from December, and overall the journey times don't really improve much at all. A missed opportunity. I guess we will continue to dawdle on the b and h to avoid yellow signals . I do feel this new timetable really is geared up too much to improve bristols lot at the expense of everyone else....
 

OSmeone

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https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/timetable-2019: under London Paddinton - "We'll be introducing new, super-fast train services that run non-stop to Oxford and Bristol and South Wales, taking up to 17 minutes off the current fastest journey times. Not all the new trains will stop at Reading or Swindon - so you'll need to make sure you're on the right train"

Does anyone have any idea yet how regular the non-stop London to Oxford trains will be, and how long the journey time will be? It's the first I've heard of it.
 

OSmeone

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Thanks! Interesting that there are no non-stop trains in the other direction (that I can find)
 

Class 33

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Just looking now at making a booking for a Bristol-London return trip on the 16th December - the inaugural day of the "Super Fast" services. The first "Super Fast" service from Bristol Temple Meads appears to be the 0853 service, calling Bristol Parkway and London Paddington only. Whilst a little earlier I notice there is a 0749 which calls at the usual stops, but there is a faster 0800 service which overtakes that service and calls at Bath Spa, Chippenham and London Paddington only. Both the 0800 and 0853 services are of interest to me. But what one shall I book for? Hmmm.....

Returning there is an 1800 service from London Paddington calling Chippenham, Bath Spa and Bristol Temple Meads only. Currently available for a reasonable £27.50 single. And with the 0853 service currently available for £18.50 single, I think probably the best plan is for me to book for both these services - both fast limited stop services but with different calling stops and partially different route.
 
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DaveHarries

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Just looking now at making a booking for a Bristol-London return trip on the 16th December - the inaugural day of the "Super Fast" services. The first "Super Fast" service from Bristol Temple Meads appears to be the 0853 service, calling Bristol Parkway and London Paddington only. Whilst a little earlier I notice there is a 0749 which calls at the usual stops, but there is a faster 0800 service which overtakes that service and calls at Bath Spa, Chippenham and London Paddington only. Both the 0800 and 0853 services are of interest to me. But what one shall I book for? Hmmm.....

Returning there is an 1800 service from London Paddington calling Chippenham, Bath Spa and Bristol Temple Meads only. Currently available for a reasonable £27.50 single. And with the 0853 service currently available for £18.50 single, I think probably the best plan is for me to book for both these services - both fast limited stop services but with different calling stops and partially different route.
There is also 1A03 (0600 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington) which calls Bath Spa and Chippenham before going non-stop to Paddington.

Dave
 

II

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There is nothing much to be gained by raising speed limits, due in large part to the close spacing of the intermediate stations, except perhaps the 75mph between Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh. But even here the 60mph restriction at Aston Magna curve will not change, so any journey time gain would be minimal.

Just for the sake of accuracy the Aston Magna curve is 70mph, not 60mph. Departing trains from Moreton-In-Marsh will usually reach 75mph before slowing down slightly to the 70mph limit (some drivers will just stick to 70mph to save braking).

If the 75mph limit was to be raised to 90mph west of Aston Magna then trains could get up to 90mph or very close to it reasonably quickly on the decent to Blockley crossing, and then maintain that to Evesham. I would estimate that 1-2 minutes could be saved on current schedules, slightly less if stopping at Honeybourne.

Coming the other way isn't so clear cut. If an IET omits Honeybourne then it should get to 90mph before Campden Bank and just about be able to maintain that up through the tunnel and then down the other side until slowing for the 70mph check at Aston Magna, so 1-2 minutes saved again. However, if it stops at Honeybourne (as the majority do) then the most an IET can reach up the bank is just over 70mph (Class 802) so it would only be able to make use of the higher linespeed after Campden Crossing, resulting in much less of a time saving - 30 seconds at best.

Any other linespeed increases on other parts of the route would only save seconds as pointed out, though I'd like to see the 25mph restriction at Norton Junction in the down direction increased to 70mph as in the up direction.

Do we know when the North Cotswold Line Taskforce report will be eventually published yet?
 

DaveHarries

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The mystery of what forms 5C50 (0649 Exeter New Yard - Exeter St. Davids) appears now to be at an end. A path has appeared for Tuesday to Friday mornings (inclusive) which suggests that Laira T&RSMD send a unit as ECS in order to provide the rolling stock for 5C50 which, as its next working, runs to Plymouth in service:

5E50 01:50 Laira T&RSMD - Exeter New Yard
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C45023/2019/12/17/advanced

Dave
 

cle

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Is there anything between Oxford and Hanborough which could improve journey times? Seems quite a long uninterrupted stretch.

This is definitely going to light a fire under Chiltern.
 

jimm

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Do we know when the North Cotswold Line Taskforce report will be eventually published yet?

No, but the current paralysis within the government doesn't assist matters.

Is there anything between Oxford and Hanborough which could improve journey times? Seems quite a long uninterrupted stretch.

Wolvercots Junction to Ascott-under-Wychwood already has a 100mph speed limit. Trains in both directions are affected by the need to slow for/accelerate from the 40mph limit round the sharp curve and over the pointwork at Wolvercote Junction, which is a fairly big interruption to the progress of trains.

If this section were ever to get 25kv overhead electrification, then the better acceleration of electric trains/IETs using the overhead would come into play, but that's not likely to happen any time soon and any resulting time gain would be marginal.
 
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Phil G

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Bit disappointing that despite the major recast there is still no later train from Bristol to Bath and Chippenham. Pretty sure demand would be there for a midnight departure from temple meads running to say Swindon, you could do this with a 5 car IET that arrives from London in the evening and send it back from Swindon direct to Stoke Gifford. Current times means no one from these towns can go to any event in Bristol or even just a night out by rail.
 

30907

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Bit disappointing that despite the major recast there is still no later train from Bristol to Bath and Chippenham. Pretty sure demand would be there for a midnight departure from temple meads running to say Swindon, you could do this with a 5 car IET that arrives from London in the evening and send it back from Swindon direct to Stoke Gifford. Current times means no one from these towns can go to any event in Bristol or even just a night out by rail.
How does the present 2320 load to Bath?
That's around last train time on many urban routes outside London...
 

Phil G

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Living in Chippenham I can't use that service so no idea! Annoyingly there's quite a good late service to Bristol due to the returning London trains.
 

Wychwood93

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Living in Chippenham I can't use that service so no idea! Annoyingly there's quite a good late service to Bristol due to the returning London trains.
Like down here in sunny Christchurch the down ex-Waterloo services run later than the up - that is how it is. I could leave Waterloo around midnight and be in Chistchurch somewhere around 02.00 - actually 00.05 for 02.07 arrival. The last up service is the 22.10 from Weymouth, Christchurch at 23.20 and terminating at Eastleigh at 00.14. I can see there would, perhaps, be more demand for a late Bristol/Swindon - Bristol being a 'bigger' place than Bournemouth, but...……… At one time, some 30 years ago, when there was an up TPO from Weymouth to Waterloo - for passengers as well as Post Office stuff - somewhere around midnight at Chistchurch for 03.xx arrival at Waterloo. I had been on it - perhaps a gig at the Winter Gardens in Bomo? - not exactly rammed! The 'nice to have' sort of stuff really - engineering bits to do overnight, units to depots for a 'wash and go' and on the road again before dawn.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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From looking at the afternoon / evening peak time trains from London to the North Cotswolds, does that mean Reading loses direct trains from London to the North Cotswolds in the rush hour at these times? I can't see that going down well.

Also, as the new London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads services arrive at Temple Meads at like xx:37 and xx:07, do most have a waiting time of now 53 minutes compared to around 45? That'd be great as it would mean extra time to make sure the train is clean and ready for departure. Plus I can hopefully be allowed on around 45 minutes before departure - on the 18/02/19, I was allowed on the 15:30 to Didcot at around 14:50. Brilliant as the it was cold outside and warm inside and meant I could do an email in piece and quiet with non-cold fingers
:)!

I understand 1 or 2 have a layover of just 17 minutes (on weekdays the 15:00 Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads arrives at 16:43 and runs the 17:00 - I've caught this one back to Didcot once last year there's one from Temple Meads at around 17:30 for back-up).
 

VT 390

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From looking at the afternoon / evening peak time trains from London to the North Cotswolds, does that mean Reading loses direct trains from London to the North Cotswolds in the rush hour at these times? I can't see that going down well.
I have thought this as well, because most other places which have non-stop services through Reading will at least have other direct options (though at a lower frequency, where as there will be no direct options for the Cotswold line passengers.
 

jimm

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From looking at the afternoon / evening peak time trains from London to the North Cotswolds, does that mean Reading loses direct trains from London to the North Cotswolds in the rush hour at these times? I can't see that going down well.

It hasn't. It appears someone got a bit carried away with the idea of faster trains to Oxford (though everything towards London in the morning peak calls at Reading) and forgot about people who commute into Reading from stations beyond Oxford or want to connect at Reading from the rest of the Thames Valley or further afield to get home.

This change was sprung on user groups at the last minute after previous drafts had showed Reading calls on all the afternoon peak trains. Official position seems to be that passengrs should (try to) get on the northbound XC services from Reading that run just ahead of the GWR trains and change at Oxford 20 minutes later, in a reminder of the good old days (see above) when the GW HSTs to Hereford used to sail through Reading and a few other places.

Whether XC was let in on this cunning plan to add to its passenger numbers in the afternoon peak is not clear.
 

cb00

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Thanks, this is useful to see. Slightly disappointed that the final non-stop to Oxford departs at 1858, just two minutes before off peak begins, but I suppose that is the idea.
 

JonathanH

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Thanks, this is useful to see. Slightly disappointed that the final non-stop to Oxford departs at 1858, just two minutes before off peak begins, but I suppose that is the idea.

The current restrictions applicable to Reading and Oxford to London Terminals tickets and travelcards apply to all long-distance trains between 1600 and 1915 inclusive. 1900 is not the end of off-peak in this respect.

Looks like they might extend it up to 1928 from the timetable change - 1930 will be the first off peak train for Thames Valley destinations for paper tickets.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=OXF&dest=PAD&grpd=1072&tkt=CDR
 
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FenMan

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The current restrictions applicable to Reading and Oxford to London Terminals tickets and travelcards apply to all long-distance trains between 1600 and 1915 inclusive. 1900 is not the end of off-peak in this respect.

Looks like they might extend it up to 1928 from the timetable change - 1930 will be the first off peak train for Thames Valley destinations for paper tickets.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=OXF&dest=PAD&grpd=1072&tkt=CDR

According to NRE. the xx.18/48 (approx.) semi-fasts where off peak tickets are currently valid, will no longer be so in December.

Hmm. A SWT-style price gouge in the making?
 

JonathanH

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According to NRE. the xx.18/48 (approx.) semi-fasts where off peak tickets are currently valid, will no longer be so in December.

Hmm. A SWT-style price gouge in the making?

They move to xx:12 / xx:42.

It looks like they have set up ticketing such that off-peak paper fares are only valid on TfL Rail out of Paddington during the evening peak. Of course, peak fares will be applied for Oyster / Contactless on those same trains.

The wording on BRFares suggests the Electrostar services being restricted but the times when restrictions don't apply more closely match the Electrostar departures than the TfL Rail ones.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=PAD&grpo=0403&grpd=0035&tkt=ODT

There is of course a huge difference between the cost of an anytime and off-peak travelcard from Reading.
 

FenMan

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The current restrictions applicable to Reading and Oxford to London Terminals tickets and travelcards apply to all long-distance trains between 1600 and 1915 inclusive. 1900 is not the end of off-peak in this respect.

Looks like they might extend it up to 1928 from the timetable change - 1930 will be the first off peak train for Thames Valley destinations for paper tickets.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=OXF&dest=PAD&grpd=1072&tkt=CDR

They move to xx:12 / xx:42.

It looks like they have set up ticketing such that off-peak paper fares are only valid on TfL Rail out of Paddington during the evening peak. Of course, peak fares will be applied for Oyster / Contactless on those same trains.

The wording on BRFares suggests the Electrostar services being restricted but the times when restrictions don't apply more closely match the Electrostar departures than the TfL Rail ones.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=PAD&grpo=0403&grpd=0035&tkt=ODT

There is of course a huge difference between the cost of an anytime and off-peak travelcard from Reading.

The departures I am referring to are the 1Dxx head code semi-fast Electrostars to Didcot Parkway - currently off peak tickets are valid for these departures from Paddington in the evening peak. But no longer, it would appear, from December.
 

peterson

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It hasn't. It appears someone got a bit carried away with the idea of faster trains to Oxford (though everything towards London in the morning peak calls at Reading) and forgot about people who commute into Reading from stations beyond Oxford or want to connect at Reading from the rest of the Thames Valley or further afield to get home.

This change was sprung on user groups at the last minute after previous drafts had showed Reading calls on all the afternoon peak trains. Official position seems to be that passengrs should (try to) get on the northbound XC services from Reading that run just ahead of the GWR trains and change at Oxford 20 minutes later, in a reminder of the good old days (see above) when the GW HSTs to Hereford used to sail through Reading and a few other places.

Whether XC was let in on this cunning plan to add to its passenger numbers in the afternoon peak is not clear.

I know commuters from further out bemoan the hoards of Reading commuters clogging up "their" trains. I get that. So why not make these trains pick up only at Reading? It's very disappointing for Reading to lose its peak time connectivity to stations beyond Oxford. Reading has the potential to grow as a commercial centre (and it is growing). I know the data will show far more journeys to London than Reading from these stations, but it's such a self fulfilling prophesy. We can take a bit of heat off central London by allowing other centres to fulfill their promise. In that light, this is a hugely disappointing backward step and I hope it will be reconsidered.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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I've just had a look on GWR's journey planner so I can get a better look at the Off-Peak services from Paddington back to Didcot Parkway - the 15:56 stopping service, arriving at 17:18 is the last Off-Peak service. Then there's the 17:42 and 18:42 services (each taking 44 minutes) which I've searched and an Off-Peak ticket is valid for these 2 services.

GWR told me in a DM that all 387's in the peak hours are no longer Off-Peak. However, as mentioned above, I checked the journey planner for the 16/12/19 just to see which peak services are Off-Peak and the 17:42 and 18:42 are the only 2 Off-Peak services from London to Didcot between the 15:56 and 19:33.

I don't mind anyone checking the journey planners but that's correct.

Maybe the Class 387 services from London to Didcot between the 15:56 and 17:42 had a significantly reduced number of Off-Peak ticket holders travelling the whole length and most decided to switch to, and pay more, for the IET services. Plus I presume this kind of reduces overcrowding.

Hopefully there'll be 12 coaches on these services!
 

jimm

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I know commuters from further out bemoan the hoards of Reading commuters clogging up "their" trains. I get that. So why not make these trains pick up only at Reading? It's very disappointing for Reading to lose its peak time connectivity to stations beyond Oxford. Reading has the potential to grow as a commercial centre (and it is growing). I know the data will show far more journeys to London than Reading from these stations, but it's such a self fulfilling prophesy. We can take a bit of heat off central London by allowing other centres to fulfill their promise. In that light, this is a hugely disappointing backward step and I hope it will be reconsidered.

Pathing in the peak period out of Paddington is so tight from December that at this stage it is probably too late to do anything about it until May 2020 at the earliest.

The new third peak train per hour to Bristol (first stop at Chippenham) leaves at xx.00, with the stopping train to Bristol then following at xx.02, so the Oxford/Cotswold trains at xx.58 are pretty much obliged to run flat out all the way to Didcot to stay in front and then move out of the way on to the Oxford line without delaying both the Bristol trains, so a pick-up call at Reading is a non-starter.

This arrangement does rather have the feel of being what is operationally most convenient for Network Rail, rather than someone at GWR bothering to go away and look at how many tickets are actually being sold between Cotswold Line stations and Reading (or places where you would change at Reading for connections) before agreeing to take out pretty much all the late afternoon and early evening peak calls there.

The only other option would appear be to do something with the xx-50ish path that the fast 387s to Didcot use - which is of course actually the regular Cotswold Line path for most of the rest of the day - but they can only run at 110mph and need time to cross to the relief line at Maidenhead, so couldn't just swap places with the Cotswold IET services at xx.58.

A rethink of all the paths out of Paddington between xx.45 and xx.05 will be needed to fix this, but that may depend on how many hacked-off passengers let GWR and their MPs know what they think (and how much worse overcrowding gets on the relevant XC services between Reading and Oxford).
 

Ianno87

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This arrangement does rather have the feel of being what is operationally most convenient for Network Rail, rather than someone at GWR bothering to go away and look at how many tickets are actually being sold between Cotswold Line stations and Reading (or places where you would change at Reading for connections) before agreeing to take out pretty much all the late afternoon and early evening peak calls there.

Add Reading calls and trains get removed. Simple.

Reading-Cotswold Line remains an easy change at Oxford - I'd wager the number of such passengers with such a relatively minor inconvenience is far less than the number that benefit from the general acceleration of schedules.

If you insist on keeping every aspect of currentll connectivity, you'll just end up back at today's timetable again with no actual progress made.
 

JonathanH

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Is there really any reason why a blanket off-peak ban between 1600 and 1930 from Paddington would not be tenable?

I get that it might put pressure on the first trains after 1930 but is there a reason why short distance travellers should be able to travel at off-peak rates when longer-distance travellers aren't?

Maybe a relaxation during school holidays might be appropriate. Did they do that at Liverpool Street at one point when an off-peak bar was implemented there?
 
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