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Passenger fatally injured on a train between Bath and Bristol, Saturday 01/12/18

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Grumpy Git

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DarloRich, I'm not trying to score points or otherwise and this is a very tragic accident, but after more than 40 years in industry (apprentice trained), I can honestly say that in today's working environment, so long as someone has signed the required paperwork beforehand, (i.e. those in charge have absolved all responsibility), they couldn't give a damn if the person doing the job has no arms.

You only have to look around you in everyday life to see examples of terrible workmanship everywhere and it drives me mad.
 
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DarloRich

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DarloRich, I'm not trying to score points or otherwise and this is a very tragic accident, but after more than 40 years in industry (apprentice trained), I can honestly say that in today's working environment, so long as someone has signed the required paperwork beforehand, (i.e. those in charge have absolved all responsibility), they couldn't give a damn if the person doing the job has no arms.

You only have to look around you in everyday life to see examples of terrible workmanship everywhere and it drives me mad.

I am not apprentice trained but I am a manager. I do not recognize your statement as accurate and disagree with it fundamentally.
 

Grumpy Git

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I am not apprentice trained but I am a manager. I do not recognize your statement as accurate and disagree with it fundamentally.

Which is fair enough. I didn't make my point very well and I'm probably over-generalising? My gripe is when the person overseeing the job, has no concept, idea or otherwise what the correct finished outcome should look like, (i.e. they have no actual/practical experience), but they do have a box ticked which gets them out of jail if it goes belly-up.
 

Taunton

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That certainly played a part.
Does any blame fall on the 'sensible' adult who despite warning stickers decided to stick her head out of a window on a moving train?

I know whats coming.............
I do think it's a rather railway-centric approach to expect passengers to open droplights themselves and lean out at stations to open doors, but then think they will all fully understand not to do so elsewhere when the door is locked, especially as we are all aware that it is a common aspect on droplight trains that we can see every day (especially by juvenile enthusiasts). At the few places where the static clearances are limited we long provided window bars on the relevant stock. Both this accident and the Balham one occurred at points where Network Rail had not, long term, maintained the structure gauge adequately to their own specification.
 

Spartacus

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Something that I thought might have been flagged up as a possible underlying factor was the position of the fencing. After the incident had occurred it was thought that the tree had been growing outside the railway boundary due to there being a fence between it and the railway, but it turns out that wasn’t the case. What’s the chances that those undertaking walking inspections made the same mistake? True, even if they hadn’t the tree might still not have received attention, but it makes me wonder, especially after it appears to have been flagged up previously and only cut back to a certain extent, if it had been thought to be a ‘railway tree’ rather than a private one growing from a back garden (with possible lawsuit attached for damage) would it have been cut back more?
 

Spartacus

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Which is fair enough. I didn't make my point very well and I'm probably over-generalising? My gripe is when the person overseeing the job, has no concept, idea or otherwise what the correct finished outcome should look like, (i.e. they have no actual/practical experience), but they do have a box ticked which gets them out of jail if it goes belly-up.

It’s a human thing, sadly, just like with calculators, too many people don’t question what the answer is, assuming it’s right because the thing in their hand says it’s right, even when a seconds thought would show it to be wrong.
 

embers25

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So do all cars need warning messages on windows now in case whilst driving down a country lane a branch comes in an open window in summer or if a passenger puts a body part out. Europe manages just fine with fully open windows within the seated bit without needing the new ridiculous warnings, because they don't adopt the snowflake approach to H&S regulations. What about open top buses which surely must be banned immediately if they must be idiot proof. This is an absolute joke of a judgement. It's not an open and shut case, but it's as close as one gets.
 

Taunton

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but it makes me wonder, especially after it appears to have been flagged up previously and only cut back to a certain extent, if it had been thought to be a ‘railway tree’ rather than a private one growing from a back garden (with possible lawsuit attached for damage) would it have been cut back more?
I think it's in one of the railway bylaws that they can cut back trees etc overhanging their operational property. The same principle applies to trees which grow overhanging the road and start to strike double deck buses - the operator there is also in law allowed to cut them back themselves (referred to above) without seeking permission. I believe there's a provision that all the offcuts must be thrown back over the fence to the landowner and not taken away.
 

Grumpy Git

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I think it's in one of the railway bylaws that they can cut back trees etc overhanging their operational property. The same principle applies to trees which grow overhanging the road and start to strike double deck buses - the operator there is also in law allowed to cut them back themselves (referred to above) without seeking permission. I believe there's a provision that all the offcuts must be thrown back over the fence to the landowner and not taken away.

The same law applies in your garden. If you neighbour has a tree with overhanging branches, you are perfectly within your rights to trim them back to the boundary, but you must offer the "arrisings" back to the owner of the tree, (notwithstanding any TPO or conservation area rules).
 

E16 Cyclist

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If as the report says the woman was twice the drink drive alcohol limit there really isn’t much the toc could’ve done as she wouldn’t have taken much notice of the warning signs.

Short of having red flashing lights she was always going to open the drop window and lean out of it and sadly her luck ran out that night
 

nedchester

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If as the report says the woman was twice the drink drive alcohol limit there really isn’t much the toc could’ve done as she wouldn’t have taken much notice of the warning signs.

Short of having red flashing lights she was always going to open the drop window and lean out of it and sadly her luck ran out that night

Exactly....
 

Edders23

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reading the report earlier today my understanding was it was a group of friends who seemed to be taking turns to pop their head out of the window . She unfortunately did so just as the train passed a damaged tree bough.

A very unfortunate accident and I sympathise with her friends and family.

This year in particular I have noticed the vegetation in my garden growing at a very fast rate. it seems nature is taking advantage of perfect growing conditions to suck CO2 out of the atmosphere and convert it to wood. I have visited 3 heritage lines this year but not any main line travel. On all 3 occasions there were points at which branches were touching trains. I see similar things happening with double decker buses and lorries.

maintenance of line side or road side vegetation seems to be something that we increasingly skimp on to save money.

Perhaps this tragic outcome could have been prevented but maybe this is a wakeup call to say we need to do more. I suspect that will be the conclusion of any investigation because I doubt there is one single contributory cause after all how many of us on here can say they haven't had their heads out of a train window at some time ?
 

PG

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If as the report says the woman was twice the drink drive alcohol limit there really isn’t much the toc could’ve done as she wouldn’t have taken much notice of the warning signs.

Short of having red flashing lights she was always going to open the drop window and lean out of it and sadly her luck ran out that night
Sadly, indeed her luck did run out that night and my condolences to her family and friends.
Yes it does appear from the report that she had drunk alcohol so warning signs may not have been an effective mitigation but maybe a bar across the droplight would have been?
reading the report earlier today my understanding was it was a group of friends who seemed to be taking turns to pop their head out of the window . She unfortunately did so just as the train passed a damaged tree bough.

A very unfortunate accident and I sympathise with her friends and family.

This year in particular I have noticed the vegetation in my garden growing at a very fast rate. it seems nature is taking advantage of perfect growing conditions to suck CO2 out of the atmosphere and convert it to wood. I have visited 3 heritage lines this year but not any main line travel. On all 3 occasions there were points at which branches were touching trains. I see similar things happening with double decker buses and lorries.

maintenance of line side or road side vegetation seems to be something that we increasingly skimp on to save money.

Perhaps this tragic outcome could have been prevented but maybe this is a wakeup call to say we need to do more. I suspect that will be the conclusion of any investigation because I doubt there is one single contributory cause after all how many of us on here can say they haven't had their heads out of a train window at some time ?
Travelling to school on slam door stock I've certainly had my head out of the window on more than one occasion. Had I realised the risk (and been older and wiser) I might not have done... if her and her friends had realised the risk they might not have either.
Sadly too late for her now but a bar across the droplight may well have prevented this tragedy.
 

Bletchleyite

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One of the many accidents that would have been prevented had we adopted UIC folding doors with door blocking, inside handles and no droplights like everywhere else in Europe did.
 

AlastairFraser

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One of the many accidents that would have been prevented had we adopted UIC folding doors with door blocking, inside handles and no droplights like everywhere else in Europe did.
Perhaps,but this is also a wake-up call about why you need to cut back vegetation to structural clearance requirements. That vegetation,if it had fallen off in a different location along the train or happened at a different time,that could have possibly caused a derailment or worse,given the speeds along that section of the line.
 

AM9

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Not having any connection with the railway, except as a passenger, it would seem that the RAIB has the correct measured response when adjudicating on unfortunate events like this. The three parties involved are all part of the cause and future prvention of similar incidents:
a) the infrastructure owner - Network Rail. They are responsible for establishing and maintaining a route with a defined structure clearance for the trains they have authorised to pass along it.
b) the train operator(s). They have a primary responsibility for the safety of their passengers, irrespective of their temporal intelligence or behaviour.
c) the general public including those who don't even have a ticket.​
The argument that the TOC is predominately responsible is based on the fact that passengers are carried inside the vehicles, and all reasonable steps must be taken to prevent them doing otherwise. A notice on or by a door isn't the limit of reasonable precautions, as a child or an inebriated person might not have had an adequate warning from it, as the GWR case in discussion proves.
The argument that NR should be able to ensure the structure gauge is kept perfect at all times is specious. Trees are natural growing objects, they get broken in storms and can even move when their roots are exposed, e.g. during exceptional rainfall. Most of the time, the intrusions into the gauge envelope are from twigs etc., which is why there are anecdote posting here. It would be an unreasonable demand on NR to guarantee that these never occur. However, when these minor intrusions do occur, vehicle bodies are strong enough to push them away, - even driver cab windows are generally tough enough to do so without posing an injury risk to the driver. A human head however isn't as strong as steel bodies and a small branch as thin as 1 inch could easily cause a fatal injury.
The responsibility of the TOC to NR includes keeping the train within it's defined loading gauge. Had these passengers been prevented from causing the train to run out of gauge, the report would be a minor damage note at the depot. Thus it would seem that the TOC must carry the major responsibility here, in effect by running a rolling stock design that is not fit for a significant part of its purpose.
Apart from the defensive messages in this thread, presumably from TOC and NR interests, I feel that there is a strong defence by some HST fans here who won't admit that the love of their lives is no longer acceptable on a modern railway unless modifications, (probably prohibitively expensive) are undertaken on all of them.
 
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yorksrob

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Clearly NR weren't keeping the lineside vegetation within reasonable limits. That seems to be the long and the short of it.
 

HLE

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Such a shame but thankfully droplight stock is disappearing from the network. Yes, she did make that fatal mistake that night, but there's no way a tree should be hitting a train or even be near it. It took NR months earlier this year to clip back a tree on a route I go over, that hit the front and then side of the train each time I went past.
 

edwin_m

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Perhaps,but this is also a wake-up call about why you need to cut back vegetation to structural clearance requirements. That vegetation,if it had fallen off in a different location along the train or happened at a different time,that could have possibly caused a derailment or worse,given the speeds along that section of the line.

Clearly NR weren't keeping the lineside vegetation within reasonable limits. That seems to be the long and the short of it.
The report discusses the approach to vegetation management at great length. It appears NR was following its own standards in this case, which are focused on managing risks of derailment and visual obstruction. The branch in question was assessed to be too small to be a derailment risk and was not affecting sighting.

The report does indeed conclude that with the virtual disappearance of opening droplights from this route within a few months (and from the national network generally) there is no need to cut vegetation back further to provide clearance for people leaning out of droplights. The situation on heritage railways is different, with droplights to continue indefinitely (and, not mentioned, no doubt a greater likelihood of people leaning out of them) so there is a case for them to consider this when cutting back excess growth.
 

yorksrob

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The report discusses the approach to vegetation management at great length. It appears NR was following its own standards in this case, which are focused on managing risks of derailment and visual obstruction. The branch in question was assessed to be too small to be a derailment risk and was not affecting sighting.

The report does indeed conclude that with the virtual disappearance of opening droplights from this route within a few months (and from the national network generally) there is no need to cut vegetation back further to provide clearance for people leaning out of droplights. The situation on heritage railways is different, with droplights to continue indefinitely (and, not mentioned, no doubt a greater likelihood of people leaning out of them) so there is a case for them to consider this when cutting back excess growth.

That might be the case, but droplight stock had been operating on the route for the past 150 years.
 

AM9

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That might be the case, but droplight stock had been operating on the route for the past 150 years.
So what! We don't accept H&S attitudes that were normal 150 years ago. These trains as sent out on diagrams are not fit for purpose.
So the posters here who can't acknowledge that are either protecting a TOC's backside, or resenting a trivial incident threatening the demise of 19th century coach door design. The green environment beside tracks is a natural one. However much trimming NR is required to do, incidents like this can only be prevented by keeping passengers within the protected environment of the coach body. The protection provided by a modern coach is totally under the railway's control, and failure to provide adequate protection is a TOC failure.
 

nedchester

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One of the many accidents that would have been prevented had we adopted UIC folding doors with door blocking, inside handles and no droplights like everywhere else in Europe did.

No in Europe a good amount of trains still have windows that drop half way down and you can lean out. But there again in Europe you are expected to use a bit of common sense.
 

yorksrob

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So what! We don't accept H&S attitudes that were normal 150 years ago. These trains as sent out on diagrams are not fit for purpose.
So the posters here who can't acknowledge that are either protecting a TOC's backside, or resenting a trivial incident threatening the demise of 19th century coach door design. The green environment beside tracks is a natural one. However much trimming NR is required to do, incidents like this can only be prevented by keeping passengers within the protected environment of the coach body. The protection provided by a modern coach is totally under the railway's control, and failure to provide adequate protection is a TOC failure.

Absolutely not.

This tragic incident was primarily caused by the passenger not heeding the advice not to stick their head out the window whilst the train was moving.

It was secondarily caused by NR not maintaining lineside vegetation to a point where it is sufficiently outside of gague.

The fact that the vehicle - like many others on rail and road has an opening window, has nothing to do with it.
 

edwin_m

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Absolutely not.

This tragic incident was primarily caused by the passenger not heeding the advice not to stick their head out the window whilst the train was moving.

It was secondarily caused by NR not maintaining lineside vegetation to a point where it is sufficiently outside of gague.

The fact that the vehicle - like many others on rail and road has an opening window, has nothing to do with it.
If the train hadn't had an opening window then this incident couldn't have happened. Therefore the opening window is causal to the incident (and to many others over the years).

Even if NR standards had required the vegetation to be trimmed back further from the track, the incident could still have happened if for example a branch had been blown down hours or minutes before the train arrived.
 

Need2

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If the train hadn't had an opening window then this incident couldn't have happened. Therefore the opening window is causal to the incident (and to many others over the years).
So should we have barriers all along our roads?
Obviously by your statement (and ridiculous laws) we need them to stop people being killed by cars and the council getting the blame for not doing anything to stop it!

Utter poppy cock
 

yorksrob

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If the train hadn't had an opening window then this incident couldn't have happened. Therefore the opening window is causal to the incident (and to many others over the years).

Even if NR standards had required the vegetation to be trimmed back further from the track, the incident could still have happened if for example a branch had been blown down hours or minutes before the train arrived.

Maybe, but had the first two factors been addressed (by the passenger and NR) any risk from the droplight would have been miniscule - within the parameters we seem to be prepared to accept more generally around the interaction between people and heavy vehicles.
 

DarloRich

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If the train hadn't had an opening window then this incident couldn't have happened. Therefore the opening window is causal to the incident (and to many others over the years).

Even if NR standards had required the vegetation to be trimmed back further from the track, the incident could still have happened if for example a branch had been blown down hours or minutes before the train arrived.

Correct. Your first sentence is being overlooked ( perhaps willfully) by many posters.

Not having any connection with the railway, except as a passenger, it would seem that the RAIB has the correct measured response when adjudicating on unfortunate events like this. The three parties involved are all part of the cause and future prvention of similar incidents:
a) the infrastructure owner - Network Rail. They are responsible for establishing and maintaining a route with a defined structure clearance for the trains they have authorised to pass along it.
b) the train operator(s). They have a primary responsibility for the safety of their passengers, irrespective of their temporal intelligence or behaviour.
c) the general public including those who don't even have a ticket.​
The argument that the TOC is predominately responsible is based on the fact that passengers are carried inside the vehicles, and all reasonable steps must be taken to prevent them doing otherwise. A notice on or by a door isn't the limit of reasonable precautions, as a child or an inebriated person might not have had an adequate warning from it, as the GWR case in discussion proves.
The argument that NR should be able to ensure the structure gauge is kept perfect at all times is specious. Trees are natural growing objects, they get broken in storms and can even move when their roots are exposed, e.g. during exceptional rainfall. Most of the time, the intrusions into the gauge envelope are from twigs etc., which is why there are anecdote posting here. It would be an unreasonable demand on NR to guarantee that these never occur. However, when these minor intrusions do occur, vehicle bodies are strong enough to push them away, - even driver cab windows are generally tough enough to do so without posing an injury risk to the driver. A human head however isn't as strong as steel bodies and a small branch as thin as 1 inch could easily cause a fatal injury.
The responsibility of the TOC to NR includes keeping the train within it's defined loading gauge. Had these passengers been prevented from causing the train to run out of gauge, the report would be a minor damage note at the depot. Thus it would seem that the TOC must carry the major responsibility here, in effect by running a rolling stock design that is not fit for a significant part of its purpose.
Apart from the defensive messages in this thread, presumably from TOC and NR interests, I feel that there is a strong defence by some HST fans here who won't admit that the love of their lives is no longer acceptable on a modern railway unless modifications, (probably prohibitively expensive) are undertaken on all of them.

A very measured post which shows much more patience than i am prepared to display here these days!
 
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edwin_m

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So should we have barriers all along our roads?
Obviously by your statement (and ridiculous laws) we need them to stop people being killed by cars and the council getting the blame for not doing anything to stop it!

Utter poppy cock
Thank you for your thought out and constructive contribution to the debate.

If you are saying my statement "If the train hadn't had an opening window then this incident couldn't have happened" is "utter poppy cock" then please explain how this accident could have happened if the train hadn't had opening windows.

Obviously if NR had cut back this particular branch, or the person hadn't leaned out of the window, the accident wouldn't have happened either. But however good the inspection and trimming there's always a risk of a branch being close to a train, there are always going to be people that will lean out of an opening window regardless of how many warning signs are provided (has anyone on this forum not done so?).

If this accident had happened several decades ago when droplights were widespread, and been investigated to today's standards, then I would agree it would be reasonable for the network operator to trim back the foliage so it wouldn't be close to the windows. However in that era it would probably have been regarded as "just one of those things" and ignored, unlike a "real" train accident which would have been thoroughly investigated. But as droplights are now nearly extinct it doesn't seem reasonable to expect NR to spend a lot of taxpayers' money on extra foliage management, increasing the risk to their staff working trackside with powered cutting tools, just to prevent an unlikely repeat of this accident which as you point out is partly due to misbehavior by the victim.
 
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